are dual exception children entitled to support in school if still doing ok?

(41 Posts)
nonicknameseemsavailable Thu 13-Mar-14 13:02:56

just that really, if a child has a learning difficulty (verbal related - probably dyslexia to some degree and slow processing speed compared to IQ) but an IQ over 130 so is managing at school to produce goodish work then what kind of level of help can we reasonably hope to get from the school?

blueberryupsidedown Thu 13-Mar-14 13:35:00

Even in infant school, a lot of the evaluation of children is based on that he can produce - read, write, add up, etc. I don't think that schools have evaluations in line with IQs. Schools don't measure IQs.

If the problem is diagnosed by a professional either at school, privately, or by a speech therapist then it's much easier to have a specific number of hours, or a program at school to help your DC. How old is he/she?

EmmaGoldmanSachs Thu 13-Mar-14 15:41:56

One way to push for help is to focus on unexpected differences in curriculum levels. Dd had an excellent and very experienced teacher in yr 2 who made this point to us.

So in her case dd was working at a high level 1/low level 2 for writing at end yr 2, below expectations but not dramatically so. The teacher explained that if she was at that level with writing, and a bit better or around the same for other areas, she'd assume she was just taking a bit longer to get there and would pick up in yr 3 as so many do. But, the fact that her reading, verbal work and maths were all high level 3 suggested a specific problem with writing & spelling needing intervention.

gardenfeature Thu 13-Mar-14 16:47:51

Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that you will get any help. Intervention usually comes when a student is a certain amount of years or levels behind (usually 2 years behind). Using a laptop is a possibility. If two students are at the same level, school is not going to say that one is underachieving whilst the other is achieving at expected levels so we'll only give help to the underachiever. It's unfair to students who are twice exceptional but in my experience, it's the way it is.

You may get extra time in exams but you now have to have a standardised score below the 85th percentile in spelling, reading or processing speed (I think). This means that a very bright student could have a massive discrepancy but still won't qualify.

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmeduemp/22ii/22ap12.htm

blueberryupsidedown Thu 13-Mar-14 17:13:07

Not necessarily. DS has dyspraxia, verbal and general, and had a speech delay for which he received one-to-one support at school by a specially trained TA, four days a week for his first two years at school. He was already doing very well academically despite his speech disorder and physical delays. Now in year 2 he is on the SEN list, has an IEP, and is on the G&T list for maths. Sometimes a learning difficultly if identified and diagnosed, and is tacked by the school separately from the actual academic achievement. Especially if it has to do with language development, which affects a child's social development and academic achievement in the long run.

nonicknameseemsavailable Thu 13-Mar-14 23:00:22

thank you - child is 6.5.

processing speed is 73rd centile but Full Scale IQ is over 130.

I wasn't holding out much hope of any help. I think my concerns are that the child's coping strategies will only hold up to a certain level without any help to boost the skills in the first place if that makes sense. I am not looking for lots of TA time or anything as I understand the resource issue and I don't think it would be relevant, I was thinking more about advice and potential exercises we could do at home to try and assist with segmenting words and so on. I have been doing some anyway but was just curious if I should be asking the school for anything.

nonicknameseemsavailable Thu 13-Mar-14 23:02:34

and 73rd centile is still average so perfectly normal and not a problem in many ways but when it is so much lower than the IQ (of which it is a part) then it is a 'relative' problem.

gardenfeature Fri 14-Mar-14 07:38:55

I would speak to Potential Plus and tread very cautiously, bearing in mind that school may have children on say the 10th percentile. My DS had Verbal at the 99.5th and Spelling and Maths scores below the 50th percentile but they were still in the average range and therefore not a problem according to a particular Ed Psych I encountered.

EmmaGoldmanSachs Fri 14-Mar-14 10:10:20

Being cynical about it, it is worth remembering that children likely to achieve very highly are valuable to schools, given the way that everything is judged on results at the moment. If you're asking for something limited and achievable, which it sounds like you are (ie not vast amounts of time/resources), then you may find the school are sympathetic.

I guess this is more the case at secondary level (children that are potential oxbridge material are a quantifiable asset to a school), but still, everyone looks at the number of level 6s in SATs etc in a junior school's results.

This isn't my assessment, btw, but from the ed psych (she did try to put it a bit less crudely).

nonicknameseemsavailable Fri 14-Mar-14 12:03:41

thanks Emma, yes I am not expecting lots I just kind of want to have an idea of what might be possible.

Gardenfeature - yes that is what I am trying to be aware of.

basildonbond Sun 16-Mar-14 09:55:01

Both my boys have statements (for slightly different reasons) and both on G&T register so ime children don't need to be behind in order to get help

One ds has the highest level of support our lea will give to a child in mainstream education

HolidayCriminal Sun 16-Mar-14 10:06:47

I think the full answer is no in our LEA; DS has loads of behaviour problems & we're told there's no help (no chance of a statementing process or other help) because he's avg or better at academics. I imagine policies vary by LEA, though.

gardenfeature Sun 16-Mar-14 11:03:43

I think the point is that if a student is say predicted to get a GCSE Grade Cs then it is unlikely to trigger any intervention based on the fact they have a high IQ and might therefore be expected to get As.

There may be other issues that do trigger support such as ASD, behaviour, dyspraxia, dyslexia (spelling, handwriting intervention), speech delay, physical disabilities, etc but it is highly unlikely to be based on a discprepancy between achievement and potential if the achievement is within average ranges.

nonicknameseemsavailable Sun 16-Mar-14 20:08:30

sorry thats what I mean garden feature. if they have dyslexia or another problem but are still achieving averagely because they can compensate to some degree then will they still get some help for their dyslexia or are they expected to just cope. It must be incredibly frustrating to have to deal with it without any help just because you are managing to make do.

gardenfeature Mon 17-Mar-14 06:31:38

The help will depend on how severe the problem is and whether or not it stops them "accessing the curriculum". TAs can read and scribe if necessary. Another thing to bear in mind is that it is actually a good thing for the child to be as independent as possible. My DS is pretty much left to get on with it which is more like the "real world". He uses a laptop and in the past has had small group help with maths, spelling and handwriting. Secondary school teachers are aware and reasonably understanding - he's in the G&T group although his Levels are not in the G&T range and he won't be getting a full house of A* grades at GCSE. It is very frustrating for him but the compensating can have its benefits - he's a really good verbal communicator and will be an excellent delegator and problem solver, like many successful dyslexics. The problems they face now can actually put them in good stead for the future.

If you can come up with some solutions yourself that are easily accommodated, eg, sitting near the front, then I am sure school will be willing to help. Come up with a list of ideas that might help and then see how achievable they are.

At primary, DS2 got support and help with the giftedness when he was working 2-3 years ahead of peers. He is now in a selective secondary so doesn't need as much extra support with this: everyone in his Maths set is working at that level.

At primary, he got some support and help with the ASD. Same at secondary.

No statement. School Action Plus.

gardenfeature Mon 17-Mar-14 07:14:59

Unfortunately, nobody is going to help a "gifted" child who is working at average levels. My DS has a supposed Oxbridge IQ but was forecast all Cs and Ds at GCSE. I KNOW he can do better than this - maybe As and Bs but he will need to work twice as hard as anyone else and will be going into the exam down on marks because of SPaG. The point is that if school see a child forecast all Cs they won't see there is a problem. Hard to know what they realistically do though. DS has worked his way up from bottom to top set English and now is slowly creeping into Grade B territory.

nonicknameseemsavailable Mon 17-Mar-14 10:47:58

my particular area of concern is things like help with segmenting - as DD can read whole words she isn't getting any assistance on learning how to tackle new words except from me which is ok, I don't mind and she is making progress but I just was hoping we might be able to get a bit of help for her. I am more than happy for her to be independent and work out her own ways of doing things, most of her compensating has come from me telling her ways I had to do things growing up so she has an advantage there as I can 'teach' her my own coping strategies which so far are helping. I think it is things like when she struggles with making her writing neater, or when they do languages, maths problems, picking out words in comprehension exercises and so on this could be a problem for her but if overall she is managing well and is in top groups then it could throw a spanner in the works so to speak and look like she isn't trying or something. Having spent time being told I was careless when I wasn't I lost my confidence and I really don't want the same to happen to her.

exams are so far off I am not worried about them at the moment and I don't tend to believe exam grades count for a huge amount in the real world. by the time my kids get to GCSE age we will no doubt be doing completely different qualifications so I am not looking that far ahead at the moment. I think she is bright enough to manage and to still pass things but I am just conscious that the earlier she can have help and support with little things and techniques the less likely she will suffer.

chillikate Thu 20-Mar-14 15:19:45

My son sounds fairly similar to yours. Dyslexia / Visual Stress / Sensory Issues and IQ of 136.

This year he has been put on both the G & T and SEN registers following PPUK assessment & report. He is fairly well in the top set for everything but his reading & writing ability is not in line with his language / vocabulary and mathematical skills. He really struggles with reading & writing relatively to his other skills.

It took us 6 months to get here. His teacher last year didn't want to know.

nonicknameseemsavailable Thu 20-Mar-14 19:38:30

thanks chillikate. sorry to hear your son has struggled too. Hopefully then she can go on both lists if we get a proper diagnosis.

gardenfeature Thu 20-Mar-14 21:15:12

Similar story with us Chillikate. Junior school didn't get the plot but secondary has been brilliant and yes, DS is on both lists.

nonicknameseemsavailable Thu 20-Mar-14 22:06:39

I get the feeling that primaries aren't as good with things like this but tend to have seen good comments about secondary schools.

gardenfeature Fri 21-Mar-14 06:25:46

nonikname. The contrast between junior and secondary has been absolutely enormous. I think that the G&T list at primary was based on KS Levels whereas DS was literally picked up on day one at secondary for his debating skills - these had been seen as a problem at Junior. Junior had a very narrow field of vision whereas at secondary it's so much wider and you have subject specific teachers. Although DS hasn't had loads of support at secondary, everyone seems to "get" him whereas I never felt that any of his Junior school teachers "got" him at all. The worst experience was when Junior put on the bottom table because of his dyslexia - now he's in top sets, despite his dyslexia.

gardenfeature Fri 21-Mar-14 06:40:07

In fairness, DS was probably quite full-on, excessive and irritating at Junior school. He has slowly matured, learned to conform more and as each lesson at secondary is only an hour long nobody has the full brunt of him for a whole day. A win-win situation.

nonicknameseemsavailable Fri 21-Mar-14 12:15:15

that is great it is finally working for him gardenfeature. interesting - makes you wonder whether because part of their brains is working at a higher level in terms of reasoning than the age range of a junior school that that is why the schools can't provide accordingly.

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