Post-natal - exhausted or depressed?

[beanstalk]

My DD is nearly 6 months old, and I am still feeling totally wiped out all of the time. I knew being a parent would be tiring but starting to wory that this is not normal. I am so tired constantly and have days (maybe a couple each week) where I feel very low, crying and almost despairing. I feel like I can't 'cope' but not sure what it is I am tyring to cope with (if that makes any sense!). It has crossed my mind that maybe this is PND but would I know if it was, or am I just exhausted? Not sure at what point you should seek help, but the thought of being on ADs scares me. Anyone else feel/felt like this?

[Bienchen]

Hi beanstalk - sorry to hear you are low. Hopefully someone qualified will come on soon but in the meantime I wonder whether you feel better if you have enough sleep/rest? I had a few months of feeling very similar but a change of scenery/routine has helped a lot. Do you have help with DD? DH/DP understanding? Friends or family that will help out? DD is nearly 4 months now, so fully understand where you are coming from!

[Jessicatmagnificat]

Hi Beanstalk

My DD is now 7 months old. Like you, I spend a lot of time feeling tired. She was a difficult baby to care for (colic) and I took ADs for 3 months to get me through a bad patch. It may be worth talking things over with your GP; sometimes it's helpful to use the medication to get you over a particular hump.

I find keeping busy with DD really helpful, and a good way of keeping up with the rest of the world. I also think that being a mum is the hardest job in the world - and there is never a cut off point. Don't be hard on yourself, just take it easy, and I'm sure things will get better soon.XX

[beanstalk]

Thanks for your replies. I don't feel any better the more sleep I get, I just feel even slower! DD has slept much better at night in the last week but then I found myself awake and unable to sleep in the early hours, which is very frustrating. DP tries to be understanding but works long hours and I don't think he really realises just how bad I feel. He thinks a lie in at the weekend will fix things and it needs more than that.
We are moving house, which although v stressful, I am hoping will be a new start. We're moving to a new area so hoping to go to lots of baby groups to meet new people (none of my close friends have kids yet). Just worried about summoning up the energy to get out and about and the confidence to talk to new people.
I feel guilty about the way I feel, I know I'm so lucky to have a healthy daughter. And I adore her, but like you say Jessicat - being a mum is a hard job.

[bristols]

Beanstalk, I felt exactly the same. Everytime I looked at DS I would start crying because I knew I had nothing to feel down about and I was very lucky and I loved him so much and how was I going to get everything right etc etc etc

I found that getting out and about helped loads. It was the hardest thing because it was the last thing I felt like doing. I, too, didn't want to start on ADs and so I made myself go to a few groups. It really made all the difference. I also joined the gym and tried to go a couple of times a week in order to get some 'me' time. I even felt guilty about this but a healthier me (mentally and physically) was in the best interests of my LO.

Have you spoken to your HV about this? She/he may be able to offer some good advice.

[beanstalk]

thanks bristols. Think I might go to see the HV tomorrow, it certainly can't hurt.

[ratfly]

I have been there too (am still there in fact).
Thought I was just exhausted, which I was, but taking ADs means that though still tired, I can still get out and stop crying. I thought - the tiredness could go on for ages and I can't wait that long to see if it's just tiredness and not PND IYSWIM.
And having a baby has helped me meet loads of people - join the NCT or baby yoga etc.

[Tippis]

I really feel for you Beanstalk. My son is 12 weeks and Ive been told by HV that my PND is severe- though like you I wonder if it isn't just exhaustion. He's a colicy boy and for the first few weeks I sometimes got no more than 45 mins sleep a night, and surely no-one would be chipper in those circs?! I still feel VERY anxious and panicky sometimes when he screams all day and I just don't know what to do. Today I basically wore him as a necklace all day while he screamed in my ear! Don't know about you but we have no family in the country either so no-one to take him and give us a break. Partner is great but stressed at work and knackered too. I sometimes think I've made a huge mistake becoming a Mum when I'm not up to it- then, like you say, feel guilty as he's basically a healthy and beautiful little boy. Also worry he wll pick up on the stress, though I do everything I can not to show it to him, and be somehow damaged!! I accept ADs might help but are they really OK when breastfeeding I wonder. I do get out and meet people but sometimes even that makes me feel worse- other Mums seem much more able to cope. Last week met some Mums from NCT with sweet silent babies sitting quietly on their laps- mine just screamed! They all say their babes sleep most of the day- mine is awake 5am to 7pm! How do they do it. Came home feeling even worse and ate huge amount of Green and Blacks. Sorry Beanstalk, I haven't really offered any solutions but just wanted yu to know you are not alone. This is my first ever post so excuse length and whineyness!

[beanstalk]

Tippis - you haven't made a mistake, and you are up to it, you are just going through a very big life change on very little sleep. It is enough to get anyone down and is NOT a reflection on your parenting skills. Colic must make it 100 times worse, so I feel for you. My family are not near either so you do feel you have to manage on your own. I found the first 3 months incredibly hard and like you couldnt help but compare myself to other mums who were all gushing over how much they were enjoying being a mum. But remember - you only see these people on a good day, they may well be having days that they find hard but they don't make it out of the house on those days. One mum I know who loved the first few months is now finding it difficult at 6 months, so I do think everyone struggles at some point. My DD doesn't sleep during the day either and it is hard to cope with her crying when Im so tired, so I know how that feels. I would say hang on in there, although I'm moaning in my OP, it is easier now than it was, and 12 weeks is still very young. Try to get through each day or week at a time and I promise you, you DS will get easier to look after. Have you tried a sling for the daytime, maybe he would be happy in one whilst you get on with things? And if he goes to sleep, make time for yourself, have a nap, watch tv, whatever. A friend of mine told me our only job in the first 12 months is to love them and laugh with them, which is a fantastic sentiiment and one I try to hold onto when it gets hard.

Now, if only I could take my own advice...

[clutteredup]

Poor you beanstalk and Tippis. I had PND with DS and it didn't really go away until I got pregnant with DD2( 6 years later) I didn't get help coz I didn't know about mn in those days and i thought i was just a crap mother and i would have my baby taken away. as a result i didn't enjoy ds as a baby and its only now i can look back and forgive myself. with dd2 i'm finally realising wht its like to have a baby and enjoy it. she's 5 mo and i'm exhausted, i get bad pmt and i get down when i'm tired but it's no comparison to how i felt with ds and dd1. what i guess i'm trying to say is retrospectively i realise the difference between being tired and pnd but at the time i couldn't tell either. but i slept a lot with ds and i still felt s**t, and a lie in didn't help me like it does now. it's worth getting help, there are alternatives to ads, like cognitive behaviour therapy and diet - but anything is better than going through what i did untreated for so long. being a mother is the hardest thing in the world - its so much worse trying to do it with untreated pnd. Good luck and keep talking on mn if only I had .

[Jessicatmagnificat]

To Tippis - I promise, promise, promise you that it will get easier. My DD suffered badly with colic, and like you, I had PND. I found that DD screamed so much that even popping to the supermarket became an ordeal, as people used to comment on how much she screamed. I used to feel like the worst mother in the world, and think I'd made a terrible mistake.

Now DD is 7 months old, things have got A LOT better. Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and hang in there. I know it feels like the worst time in the world, but your baby WILL become easier, even if you don't believe it now.

Beanstalk - you know deep down that you need to take your own advice, but I know it's easy to say and near bloody impossible to do. Did you chat to your HV? SOmetimes just talking it over with someone outside the family can help.

I hope you both have supportive partners and families. Keep posting on MN - it helped me get through a very bleak time.

[Tippis]

Oh THANK YOU so much Jessicatmagnificat, Clutteredup and Beanstalk- I thought people might say, Oh do pull yourself together and stop moaning' (quite justifiably really!) in response to my post but you've all been so kind, I can't tell you how much it's helped, has given me a real warm glow! Which for once isn't just because my son's peed on me!
-Although actually today has been one of those days when half of his possesions are soaking in Napisan and it's been non-stop sluicing down -but he's not been so unhappy/ colicy and with your positive messages neither have I. Somehow having 'real' Mums tell you it will improve is more reassuring and convincing than any amount of parenting books.
Beanstalk I'm so glad things are improving for you- I was feeling bad that all I'd done was moan rather than help you.
I maybe over-analysing but I wonder if one reason I'm struggling to find my feet as a Mum is because I'm adopted myself and my adopted Mum died when I was young, so I don't have a kind of 'maternal template' to draw on. Sorry this may be going off at a tangent and not sticking to the topic- this is the first time I've ever used a discussion board thingy (Luddite!) so don't know quite how it works! But was curious as to other people's experiences and opinions on this- whether having a good Mum around yourslef helps a lot. Mind you when nipper's got colic I suppose it's going to be hard for anyone, whatever their situation.
Anyway hope you all have a great evening and thank you so much again.

[beanstalk]

Tippis - glad to help in any small way, that's what MN is for! It helps me to think about your situation too, as I said, I can then think about my own advice! Colic won't last for much longer, and then things will get easier.

Jessicat - spoke to my GP this morning rather than the HV. He asked me lots of questions but doesn't think it's PND because I don't feel angry with DD or blame her. He suggested I am just low and tired and said to try to exercise. If only I had the energy!

[Tippis]

Hi Beanstalk, just to throw my two penn'orth in I'm not sure about what your GP says. HVs have a specific set of questiosn to test for PND and being angry with the baby doesn't come into it. Classic symptoms apparently include the things you describe (and I have all the time!)- feeling out of control, tearful,unable to cope etc.Extreme anxiety about the baby's wellbeing is more of a sign than anger at it. If you wanted to have a look at the questions it's called the Edinburgh Test and you could Google that and even do the test online. HVs can give you the test and if you score highly, as I did, (A+ and I didn't even have to study for it!) you're entitled to six 'listening visits' where they come round for an hour a week and you can chat, rant, weep, ask for advice, whatever you like. My brilliant HV holds my baby for the whole hour and tries to rock him to sleep for me while we talk and that in itself helps. I assume this is available nation wide and I would recommend it to anyone- I'm still a basket case, but for that one hour a week and a little while afterwards, I feel so much better!

[Jessicatmagnificat]

It's quite funny isn't it that parenting a newborn is much harder and nothing like the books tell you. Have a good root around the MN threads and you will find other discussions that might help. Things often take a while to get better - I found things didn't magically improve at 3 months, but slowly got better from about 4 months.

Just keep buggering on, both of you, and accept all the help you get. A colicky baby is something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

My HV once told me it takes your body and hormones a year to recover from pregnancy and giving birth, and since hearing this, I've often thought that we mums can expect too much from ourselves.

[ratfly]

just re-reading this post. hugs to all of you - it really is hard work, as jessicat says.

beanstalk - go back to your gp. tell him you ARE depressed if need be. honestly, ad's do help - I am out of the house almost every day now, and I'm not ripping my hair out when I stay in. And ds is still a fretful sleeper, and is up in the night, but I am no longer crying..

[Tippis]

Glad to read what you say about 4 months Jessicat, the boy has just turned 12 weeks and I was kind of hoping everything would get magicaly better on the stroke of midnight! Instead this week has been HELL- he's been crying and crying for no obvious reason, all day every day. I have an exam tomorrow and have been able to do no preparation whatsoever, which means 3 years work potentially blown. I just wish I could tell what was wrong with him...where are these amazing instincts people told me I would have, which would enable me to tell instantly which cry meant what?!

[Jessicatmagnificat]

Tippis, I know what you mean! At 7 months, I still don't always know when my DD cries what is upsetting her. What I did find is that around the 4 -5 month mark, we did begin to fall into a natural routine, which included better sleeping at night and a daytime nap of 2 hours! I didn't know myself at first, it was better than winning the lottery! Hopefully this will happen for you shortly. I think you are brave - and a bit of a masochist tbh - to even think about studying with a newborn. Can't begin to imagine how you find the time or energy....respect!

[beanstalk]

Tippis - thanks for your post, I did have a look at the Edinburgh test online and it came back 'indicative of a depressive condition'. I just don't know, I feel good today so feel a bit of a fraud talking about depression. But then another bad day will come along and I'll be feeling low again. I will definitely talk to my HV, will go next Tuesday. I suppose if I think about it, I suffered in the pregnancy (signed off work for 3 months with stress) and I still cry when I think about DD's birth. And I'm trying to deal with a house purchase at the moment, I guess the stress of that is just tipping me over the edge sometimes.
Jessicat - yes you are spo right, we DO expect a lot of ourselves. Just not sure how to go about lowering those expectations!

[Tippis]

Phew it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one who can't automatically 'read' baby cries, thanks Jessicat! Looking forward to some kind of routine but also glad to hear you and your little one got there naturally- all those books (being very careful not to libel anyone!!!) which say you should impose one- well good luck with my DS! (Thanks for kind words on studying BTW but not really deserved- this was just the Viva oral exam for thesis submitted well before baby born, and I could hardly remember what I'd written, talk about waffle! Oh well it's over, phew!)

Beanstalk I'm SO sorry you had a hard pregnancy,poor you- stress when you least need it. Do share details if you feel like it, but not if too painful. I had threatened miscarriage x 3 myself and remember doc at hosp uttering immortal line ' You must be prepared to lose the baby at any time-but make sure you relax' ! Um well I can do either of those things but not both!! Anyway HV reckons this was factor in PND. Not trying to push you to feel you have PND, just not deny yourself the help either. I almost felt I wasn't 'entitled' to PND - felt'real' PND was much more serious, and as I had happy days it couldn't be that, it was just me being crap. Now I think symptoms probably very diverse. Please let us know how you get on with HV- I hope, hope you have one who is really kind and helpful but if not, don't be afraid to ask for another one- usually more than 1 at any surgery.
Oh and well done for being so pro-active in tackling things, I'm impressed.

[beanstalk]

Thanks Tippis, but at your doctor. That must have been very difficult, thank goodness it worked out ok.
I went to see my GP at around 20 weeks because I felt so exhausted (hm, sound familiar!) - and eventually a midwife referred me to a counsellor. That's when I realised my job was the problem. I got signed off work and felt better after a month or two. So not painful at all, I just felt lousy at the time.
I feel exactly like you said, like I'm not 'entitled' - which is ridiculous because who wants to be?!!
DD won't sleep in her cot in the daytime now, and so getting her to sleep when she's tired is becoming more difficult, I have to take her out in the buggy or the car, which I hardly have the energy for on some days. I have taken to nursing her to sleep in my bed in the mornings and sleeping with her, which is not a good habit to get into at 6 months but is the only way I'm getting through the days at the moment.

[Tippis]

Aha you've got a non-sleeper too Beanstalk? I'm so envious of all those 'Oh we have to wake him/ her up to feed- s/he sleeps all day' parents. My boy is SO alert and fights sleep all day even when obviously tired.
In the day he'll sleep for only a few minutes after a feed, on my lap- as long as I don't move!
Re your DD I reckon you just have to get sleep however you can sometimes. They've got us all scared about 'co-sleeping' and cot death but many cultures do it, and unless you're necking a bottle of gin and 20 B&H at the same time it's probably better than you not sleeping at all?
What makes me laugh (mirthlessly) is that all the advice says, put baby in cot during day while still awake, they'll learn to settle themselves, and wll fall asleep within 10 mins. Oh ha ha HA! Mine just screams when put down in cot, and you're not supposed to leave them crying for more than 5 minutes, so what do you do?! He only goes to sleep even in evening after a long feed, and then I have to try to slide him into his cot without waking him- do I ever wish I'd bought a raisable cot, my back is knackered!
Probably a large part of the reason we feel so down BS- no sleep and no time to ourselves.

[beanstalk]

Absolutely Tippis, we can't sleep when pregnant, then get night after night of broken sleep and no break. Who'd choose a job like that! OK, it's not all bad, I'm very grateful to have my DD and love her immensely, but it doesn't stop it being very hard. I can't remember when I was last able to have time to myself. I've been bought presents since DD was born, bubble bath, magazines, books - I haven't used/read them as I never get the chance! By the time DD is in bed in the evening I'm too tired to do anything (even have a bath!).
So how do you get your DS to sleep in the day - does he ever sleep, if you take him out at all?
Is your DP supportive or able to help? You said he is stressed at work - mine too. Do you find yourself resenting that? I do, I think that his work takes over sometimes, I suppose because he spends so much time there. Not his fault, and I feel bad putting even more pressure on him by asking for more help. It's a tricky situation.

[Tippis]

Beanstalk, you're totally playing my song there! YES I do, completely ilogically, resent DPs work! I get quite a sick feeling on a Sunday night...He said to me once, I'm not abandoning you, I'm just going to work! But adandoned is exactly how it feels. Before DS we were a team, now that we need to be one more than ever it's impossible, not becase he doesn't do his bit, but because some of his 'bit' takes him out of the house where I'm marooned with all the fear and terrible responsibility and terribly intense love, wondering what the hell I'm doing all week long!
Sorry Bs I'll have to get back to this later-we're having a shocking time at the mo and DS is howling again, but I've been wanting to reply for so long I thought I'd at least get started!

[Tippis]

Me again...re: DS sleeping. For the longest time he was up from 5am to 6pm non-stop apart from little breastfeeding naps. It took me weeks to realise he sometimes cries, rather than sleeps, when he's over-tired. Dum Mum! It's still really hit and miss but I might try to slide him from the nursing pillow into his Moses basket- heart in mouth, dummy at the ready-and IF I can do this without waking him he might sleep fitfully for anything from 5 mins to an hour. Have just done this now. Other times if he seems really fretful I might try to put him down and he might scream and scream for a couple of minutes and then conk out. Equally the screams might get louder until I have to pick him up.Trouble is he still hates to be out down and starts screaming, real screwed-up-face furious stuff, as soon as he touches down! Which I think many babies have already outgrown at 13 weeks.

The other killer thing is his wanting to start the day at anything from 4 to 6am. He shouts and calls for us and gets upset if he doesn't get a response. I'll eventually pick him up and try to cuddle him back down again, being really quiet and boring so as not to stimulate him too much. This CAN work, but it just depends- things work one day/ minute and not the next don't they!

Back to DP's work. It's hard and stressful, and at the moment he's under immense pressure, but I still see anything that gets anyone out of this flat on their own as a bit of a skive!!I know it's ridic. because he's the breadwinner, but to me what goes on here is the REAL work, unpaid, unaided and on call 24/7. As hard as his day is, he gets to walk about swinging his arms free! And stop for a coffee whanever HE wants to, whereas I am forever on someone else's schedule, and I don't even know what that schedule will be. Yesterday DP stopped for a quick beer on the way home without telling me, and I was FURIOUS- I was counting the time until he got home, which is late enough already. I felt utterly betrayed! This isn't even something he would usually do, it's just because he was so stressed.
On subject of which, a couple of weeks ago we saw some friends, and the chap started on to DP about how he had to make time for himself and make sure he got down the pub regularly because 'you work hard all week'! I was speechless. But not for long. I WORK HARD ALL WEEK TOO MATEY!!!
Hate to say it but our relationship is definitely suffering now. We're like a relay team with DS- I do the night feeds, DP takes him at 5am until he leaves for work while I get a couple of hours sleep, then when DP comes home, he switches the laptop on for more work. Then he's so knackered by 9pm he generally falls asleep on the sofa, just when I want to have some conversation. I feel like we hardly see each other. With no family about, there is only him to help me and only me to help him, and we're both too knaclered to properly support each other. As you say Bs, the worst thing is having nowhere to turn. Say it's 4am, Im feeling ill, tired and sad- but I can't wake up DP because DS will wake him up son and he needs his sleep. And I can't ask him for emotional support when he's under so much pressure. I've just developed mastitis and feel dreadful- with any normal job I'd be off sick, but there's no sick leave from mothering! That's the most frightening thing I think- there is NO break from this incredible responsibility and no-one to help you when you need it. It's pretty lonely isnt it?
Oh dear, what a long rant! If anyone is still reading this and hasn't collapsed under the weight of my self-pity, thank you for letting me get all this off my- rather sore- chest!

[Tippis]

Hi Beanstalk, you've kinda vanished from the thread but in case you check in again, I've just read an amazing chapter in a book about how the relationship with partners changes after babies and why; the resentment as they skip off to work etc. The author interviewed hundreds of Mums and the quotes really hit home and explaned a great deal. Anyway if you pop up again and are interested, or anyone else is, I'll give the details but don't want to just plug it gratuitously!
Night all