Can an unplanned/unwanted C-section cause PND?

[sanchez]

DS was born just over a year ago by c-section after a failed induction. I was completely unprepared for this - didn't even know an induction could fail! It was the absolute last thing I wanted, I had my birth plan, wanted everything natural, no drugs etc, and was distraught when told I had to have a section. I was obviously happy to have DS out safely, and at 42+ weeks the head still wasn't engaged, so he wasn't ever going to come out naturally. He came out screaming, and didn't stop until he was put on my chest almost an hour later, he's been much the same ever since, very clingy and very hard to leave. I've been suffering PND for a few months now, and can't pinpoint when or why it started, but can't stop thinking about the birth. I feel like such a failure for not being able to do it naturally, and I didn't ever even start to labour, so I feel like I haven't given birth, even though I have DS IYSWIM. I feel it was too traumatic for DS too, as he was obviously quite happy where he was, and I will never forget how distressed he sounded when he came out. I know most babies cry when they're born. Some think a section is an easy option, but physically my tummy still hurts when I do certain things, and psychologically it's tearing me apart. Told GP, HV and councellor how I feel about this, but they're so matter-of-fact about it, and think I'm being over-dramatic - maybe I am, but I feel like I let DS down and myself, and I keep going over all the other things in my life that I can't get right either. Would appreciate any advice on how to get past this - Lulumama, would be particularly interested to hear what you think if you're around, seem to remember reading on another thread that you've experienced something similar? TIA

[Fireflyfairy2]

No pet, you are not over reacting. I knew when I went in to have dd that if I needed a c-section I would have PND, I simply knew it. self fulfilling prophecy perhaps... but that's how I felt. I had epesiotomy & forceps & suction with dd... they talked about a c-section & boy did I cry, & sob & scream the room down... I know that if it had meant my dd being born safe I would have had to consented. I feel so sory for you, it does sound like the equivalent of TSS, have you thought about counselling perhaps? Are you on medication for your PND?

[EmmyLou]

Sanchez - please find a councellor or someone to talk to about this. I had an emergency c/s under general anaesthetic with my first DD and yes, of course it affects your whole outlook on motherhood, bonding etc. I really feel for you.
I know exactly what you mean when you say you feel like you haven't given birth. Being under general anaesthetic, I felt like I wasn't even there for my DD1's birth. Looking back after 2 more babies, when I compare their births and more importantly, how i felt about each baby afterwards, then I realise just how much it did affect me and DD1. It left my DH pretty traumatised too.

In the end, having a Relate counsellor (was obviously there for different reasons!) validate these feelings and suggect that I'd had PND seemed to help overcome them. As did a book called The Ceasarian Experience (forward by Sheila Kitzinger, IIRC) and of course, having 2 further DDs VBAC also exorcised my feelings of having let DD1 and myself down. I remember reading about a scheme set up at the John Radcliffe hospital in Oxford called Birth Afterthoughts where mothers could get their birth notes and talk through their birth with a midwife - even years after - to try and lay these sorts of feelings to rest. Would your hospital offer such a service Sanchez?

At the very least, please get hold of that book if you can! I'll do a link for you if I can find it on Amazon (I gave my old copy to the midwife at the GP's clinic where I had DD1 so that she could pass it on to anyone who might need it).

[bewilderbeast]

sanchez, I'm pretty much where you are now, you could be speaking for me. I have no advice on how to get past this as I have no idea how to do it myself but I wanted you to know that you are not alone. My partner does not understand why I feel like this and thought I would be grateful not to have to go through labour, he doesn't get why I feel like I missed out. The experience has totally knocked me sideways you have my complete sympathy.

[sanchez]

Bewilderbeast, so sorry you are going through the same thing, I wish I could say something to help you. My DH doesn?t understand either. A few months ago I asked him what DS looked like when he came out, and he said he couldn?t remember (I was throwing up at the time, so didn?t see him) he couldn?t understand why I was upset, it?s no big deal to him. I?m seeing a counsellor, but she just doesn?t get it, GP and HV are also dismissive. I feel so guilty because I know I should be happy to have a healthy baby, especially when you hear about those who don?t make it, and I know I am lucky to have him, but this guilt compounds the other feelings. Thanks for the book suggestion EmmyLou, will see if I can get hold of it. The Birth Afterthoughts sounds like a great idea, my hospital does no such thing, but I think more should, there must be thousands of women who have unresolved feelings after the birth of a child. Did you have to fight to try for VBAC or was it just assumed you would?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Sanchez and bewilderbeast,

I went through a smiliar eperience with DS1. He was born at 42 weeks after an induction, an 18 hour labour and an emergency CS. After he was born, I tried telling myself that I was lucky to have a helathy baby, which of course I was, but eventually, it got me down so much etc that I got PND that wasn't picked up until DS1 was 7 months old. I felt like a failure becuse I couldn't give birth "naturally" and it didn't hlep when people said things like "too posh to push were you?" etc

Anyway, DS1 was a terribly colicky and refluxy baby and didn't really sleep for the first 12 months, and I felt, quite honestly, like ending it all bvecause I felt like such a failure and that I would never be a good mum because of it.

I went on anti depressants eventually and they helped clear the fog a bit, and helped me to talk a bit more about the birth. I found out I was pg with DS2 at this time (DS1 was 12/13 month old) and was lucky to be back in contact with my midwife again, who was excellent. We talked about what happened when I was in labour and looked through my notes. Just knowing why I was rushed in for a CS was a great help, because at the time, nobody really told me why.

I urge both of you to go and talk to someone about it. If you can get in touch with your midwife, they might be happy to talk with you, or if not a counsellor. Please don;t let this blight your experience of motherhood any mre than it has.

Just for the reciord, I had DS2 by elective CS, because I was worried that the same would happen again if I had a VBAC. The expeience couldn't have been more different. I was in control, I knew what was happening and it was so much calmer. In an ideal world, I would have had both of them vagainally, but this isn't an ideal world!

It's taken a while for me to realise that giving birth, although important, is only the beginning of the journey and that what really matters is that you have a healthy baby. (And I am not trivailising what you are feeling, I hav been there) It's hard when you have been through something so traumatic not to focus on iot though, so that's where the counselling comes in. If yout GP is being difficult, then see another,. It's your right. The GP I saw first about my PND was a right old stick in the mud who I think thought I was a neurotic old hag, but I saw another who was more understanding and who got me the right treatment.

Let us know how you get on!

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Sorry sanchez, I didn;t read that you are seeing a counsellor. Is there another you can see if yours doesn't get what you have been through?

[lulumama]

sanchez...i am here !! need to read and digest..short answer
yes

[lulumama]

i know without a shred of doubt, my PND was triggered by an emergency c.s. i can virtually pinpoint the moment in my induction when it all started....

physically, any pain must be addressed and diagnosed, as feeling physically unwell and in pain can lead to feeling fragile emotionally......

i could really have written your initial post......

i dinlt know induction could fail either ! my c,s was failure to progress with a failed induction! and the feelings of guilt and failure...

and the medical profession ignoring you and saying, as long as baby is healthy, what does it matter how the baby arrived?

well , it does matter.

[lulumama]

try a different counsellor,,,

or talk to

the www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk\birth trauma association}

and read and talk about it a lot..and really get to the bottom of it, address all the feelings you have...they are ok! and all perfectly valid and reasonable, not over-dramatic.......if you are feeling like this because of the birth, then it is fine to feel it IFYSWIM

i too felt i had not given birth , but had my baby surgically removed from me, he was brought to DH washed and dressed ,and i couldn;t hold him as i was throwing up

same story, really sanchez...my heart really goes out to you, i have been where you are..it is not pleasant...you can get through it though

anger, guilt, frustration, sadness, all of it

let it out! and then you can really start to move forward

took me a long time, and a VBAC , like EmmyLou to put it behind me...i am a big advocate of VBAC and the healing power of a positive birth, whether it be VBAC or elective c.s, but VBAC for me was the way to go

[lulumama]

birth trauma association

[Lullabyloo]

My D.s was born by emergency caesarean at 42 weeks after 57 hr labour & failed induction too,2.5 years ago.
I too had gone the totally natural route & was set on a water birth at home.
I have never been able to say 'when d.s was born' I have always said 'when he arrived' because I too felt I hadn't actually given birth to him.
Last week I came on Mumsnet & have just started to let go of some of the memories and make myslf relive it all as I'm stuck emotionally 2.5 years in the past & need so desperately to move on.
Thanks to an amazing MNer & others support I am starting to face and question my fears that are still very real and affect my every day,the way I Mother D.s and my relationship with D.h.
Sanchez honey you are not being over dramatic-the medical profession are seriously lacking in adequate compassion & advice for those of us that so badly need it.
Look to those that have been through it all before themselves & know where you are coming from,the mothers themselves.
Big hugs

[lissielou]

my experience was v similar to yours too, failed induction crash cs and i was so ill after that i dont remember the 1st 3m of noahs life. like lullyboo i dont feel that i gave birth and i feel so angry with myself for being unable to do the most natural thing in the world, i felt that i let everyone down and trapped in this weak non-functioning body. but it does fade eventually and you will start to see things in colour again. but you need to allow yourself to heal mentally and physically 1st

[mumfor1standfinaltime]

Hi,

I also had an em C section. Mine was because of an undiagnosed breech baby. My waters broke at home, I stayed home until I was 3 mins apart with contractions. When I got to hospital my world fell apart! Or so it seemed.
I had no idea what was going on most of the time, just lots of people talking and moving me from room to room. I had very high blood pressure and baby had falling heart beat.
They gave me a drug (no idea what) to calm me and to lower blood pressure and I passed out.
I had to sign a consent form drugged. I eventually had ds and I felt very strange about him afterwards. Looking back I was very depressed, mainly due to the hospital experience (to make matters worse I had to stay in for 3 nights).
I tried to talk to midwife but she didn't want to know.
Ds is now 2 and I can honestly say that only about 6 months ago have I started to 'get over' my experience.

I have read your link lulu, you have posted it before and it is useful.

Sanchez, you are not alone in your experiences and I hope this is a comfort to you. It is certainly a 'comfort' to me to read that I am not alone.

[Lullabyloo]

I had totally ignored any thought of PND before because I never had a negative thought about the screaming bundle that was my d.s for the first three months.I just felt negative about everything & everyone else.
I stayed in bed with the blinds drawn for the first seven weeks only getting up just before d.h came home to 'pretend'life was jolly as ever.
I couldn't function in any capacity.
I couldn't be the person I was pre d.s's arrival but I didn't want to acknowledge the person I was now.The person who hadn't been able to bring d.s into the world herself & who now couldn't feed him either.The feeling of failure was enormous & engulfing.
Cheery comments of 'Oh well at least d.s is ok '& 'thank goodness for c.s as years ago baby just wouldn't have survived'didn't help.
Of course they were true statements but made me want to scream.People mean well of course but I needed so much more than that.

[sanchez]

It sounds so daft to say it, but I wanted to experience the pain of childbirth, my labour never got going, I only ever had the mildest of contractions with the oxytocin (sp?) drip. When I got upset the midwives were asking me why I didn't want a CS, like they'd offered me a cup of tea! Still can't say exactly why I didn't want one, just knew it wasn't right for me.

[Lullabyloo]

It doesn't sound daft.
I know, it's grieving for the loss of an experience that we should all have the chance to have.It was taken away from us and it's hard to accept & come to tems with.

[lulumama]

sanchez.. i was desperate to labour..desperate! i had hours of oxytocin induced contractions , but had diamorphine and an epidural, so never felt it

when i was pregnant with DD , was desperate for the whole experience, of arriving at the labour ward huffing and puffing, of sucking down the g&a, of pushing my baby out
being the first person to hold her

what is silly about that? absolutely nothing

women are physiologically designed to deliver vaginally, we do not go through our pregnancies expecting to be delivered surgically.......although a good c.s is a good birth for many women..it is the bad and traumatic and unexpected ones that can have massive emotional ramifications.

i have recently started volunteering for the BTA..because i know personally the impact of an unplanned c,s and the what the consequences might be.

c.s is a valid medical procedure, and has saved many a woman and her baby...but that doesn't mean you have to be glad you had one.

sanchez...have you had a pelvic MRI scan to assess your pelvic measurement, to ensure there is no reason physically he was unable to descend..it is worth looking at

i had one after my c.s, when DS was 6 weeks old..

[sanchez]

I'd never actually thought about why DS couldn't or wouldn't descend. The consultant at the time said there was no apparent reason, just alot of fluid, so I assumed that was that. I guess it would help to know if there was a reason, and if there are implications for next time if I'm lucky enough to have another. Did you have this done on the NHS Lulu?

[lulumama]

i did ... it would also be worth, as has been suggested, going over your birth notes with someone , to get it all clear in your mind

[EmmyLou]

Sanchez, I've tried to look that book up on Amazon and all i can find is a book called The Caesarean Birth Experience by Bonnie Donovan - don't know if this is the one I had or not but I don't recall it being this hard to get hold of.

[lissielou]

sanchez, what size are you feet, i ask coz ds actually got stuck in my pelvis and it took 3 surgeons to free him. the whole experiance was so traumatic that i had nighmares for months and wouldnt leave the house or answer the phone. what upset me the most was the fact the mws never apologised for refusing to listen to me and leaving it til my heart was stopping. now i count myself v lucky to have come out of it with ds (it could so easily have been different) but when i went to discuss it and look at my notes vital things were edited or left out.
my waters were green when they broke them, the placenta disintegrated when it was removed, i should have had a blood transfusion, i had gbs, the list goes on and i still find it v difficult to deal with, but ive finally realised that none of it was my fault. my body didnt malfunction, i tried but it didnt work. you should not feel bad about your experiance, you werent the expert. of course you feel robbed, we live in society whereby womens bone structures are getting smaller and we are expected to have triplets with just low lighting and be straight back clinching million pound deals with babies clamped to the breast within 24h, not to mention the w/end catwalk/lingerie modelling.

[sanchez]

My god Lissie, that sounds horrendous, no wonder you were traumatised. I have to log off for the night now. But thanks so much to everyone who took the time to respond. I?m so sorry so many people experience the same thing, but in some perverse way it?s a comfort to know I?m not alone. Just wish healthcare professionals would take us more seriously sometimes. I know they do a difficult job, but not listening to people can have such a profound effect.

[lissielou]

speak to your hosp and ask them to explain the whole situation for you. sleep tight.

[Lullabyloo]

Lissielou sounds like we had similar experiences.
D.s was wedged in my pelvis too,they had to use forceps to yank him out.His poor little face & head were a mess.The cord was 4 times round his neck .It was a code 6 em c.s.
Afterwards they told me I had an 'android' pelvis.
As Lulumama suggested I am going to ask for a scan for this to be confirmed as I really need to know whether I will ever be able to give birth vaginally.

(I have whopping great size 8 feet by the way)

[lissielou]

my god! i have size 2 feet and am v tiny. ds engaged and disengaged 3 times and i was in labour from 35w. i resent not having the experience of holding my ds for the 1st time, and feeling like this. it took ages to realise that i nearly died twice in labour and a further time after. i missed the 1st 3m of ds life coz i was in & out of hosp. all because the hosp had exceeded cs targets
how big was lo?