Making decisions

[Khimaira]

How do you go about making serious decisions? Toss a coin, roll a dice, rational/emotional, make a list (but then how do you decide which points carry more weight?) or what? My thoughts keep running in circles, I know I need to make a decision soon, but I'm getting nowhere except constantly thinking about it.

I need to decide, whilst I'm not feeling suicidal, if killing myself would be the best thing for my family. Obviously, as there is such a stigma attached to it, it would be better if it could be passed off as an accident. I'm pretty sure I have that covered, albeit a stupid accident. I know it would be better for my children if I am not an influence in their lives, and the oldest is getting to an age where I would be remembered so it would be better to do it within the next few months. My DH would then be free to find someone he deserves and who could take care of the children far better than I ever could. Rationally, the answer is clear, but then the selfish, cowardly side kicks in. I don't want to leave my children even though I know it would be the best thing for them. I should have done it a long time ago. I can't think of a single other reason against it apart from my selfishness. But if I were to leave them a letter to be opened "in the event of my death" would it look too suspicious? I need to make a final decision and sort all the details out so when I do get suicidal again I know exactly what to do.

[selfdestructivelady]

Please don't do anything to hurt yourself your dc do need you. Things won't always be like this. Can you phone your cmht?

[wetwetwetfan]

Khimaira... please phone someone who can talk to you about this.. your GP, Samaritans, health worker....

I wish I could offer you some proper advice but I don't know your story. Please speak to someone in real life and tell them that you want to make this decision.... x

[thedyingswan]

I have been thinking almost the same things. At the moment I am not too suicidal and see suicide more like a rational decision.

However in my case I am probably to scared to do something that really would kill me.

[LEMoncehadacatcalledSANTA]

You need help my love and you need it quickly - you are being far too rational about this. Please pleae please get an emergency appointment with your doctors, print out your OP and take it with you. You will be given help straight away. Are you under the mental health team at all?

What has made you feel like this??

You may be being all rational and objective about this but your children are NOT better off without you, it is not your decision to make. You say the cowardly and selfish side kicks in and you think you don't want to leave them - THAT is not the selfish side, leaving them would be the selfish thing. Leaving them to spend their lives wondering why their mum left them, why they weren't enough to make their mum want to live. They may or may not remember you - but do you think not being able to remember you will make it any less painful for them? That they will feel less abandoned? You will leave them a legacy of pain that will pass down the generations - i have seen this. My cousin took his own life - he was found by his son (aged 7) and his younger teenage brother. He had four children and they have all had such pain and tragedy in their lives - stemming from this very act, one lad having several stays in psych wards when he should be with his children. His brother totally went off the rails, lead a tragic life and died from a herion overdose in his late 30s. That is the reality of what you are contemplating - you will destroy your children's live if you do this.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh, all i really want to do is give you a hug and tell you it will be ok. I have felt this way and i do understand, I have thought about how and when etc, but it is the thought of my DDs visiting my grave that has kkept me here. That and medication and counselling - I reached out, i told someone - i got help - i wasn't carted off to hospital, i was given medication and support. I do suffer from depression but i wont let myself slip there again, i can't its a terrifying place to be. You are not alone - but please promise me you will get some help

Call the samaritans if you need to hear a voice - then make that appointment. No one will judge you x

[Khimaira]

Why too rational? Surely it's better to make a decision like this when you are being rational and not when you are in the middle of an urge to actually do it. I hear what you say, but if it seems just like a stupid accident, then they don't need to know that do they? They get the best of both, they don't need to know that it wasn't an accident and they don't have to have me ruin their lives.

[Ehhn]

How and why do you think you will ruin their lives? Can you articulate it rationally? Or are you just afraid of repeating the mistakes of your family history?

As the pp above says, the rational outcome of losing a parent (this includes through accidents) is grief in the children, no matter what. I have friends who were devastated during their childhood by the losses of parents due to illness and accident. Every major life event (recently marriage and having their children) is made greyer by the absence of their deceased parent.

Just picture your children crying at your funeral. The absence they will feel as they have no mother to pick them up when they hurt, to admire their interesting teenage clothing choices, to comfort them when they are dumped for the first time, to sit in the front row sobbing at their graduation, or wedding.

Of course your husband could do those things, but don't you think your children will always think of the vacant space left by the absence of their mother?

To give a sense of perspective, children love their parents so much that even abusers and paedophile parents are loved devotedly by their children. No matter how bad a parent or person you think you are (and I refuse to believe you are an abuser or paedophile), your children love you deeply and unconditionally. If you love them unconditionally, you will keep yourself alive, no matter how painful that may feel, as your children will not understand that you love them by leaving them. You show you love them by staying no matter how shitty things get, or you feel, or how bad a person you think you are.

Please get some professional help and reach out to people.

I don't mean to sound harsh, I just want to appeal to your rational self as you are trying to have a pragmatic approach to this highly emotional and sensitive issue. I have had depression and feelings of worthlessness strike me at times and have felt that I'm such an awful person that the world would be a better place without me. Therapy and medication have helped me reprogramme my thinking. Please consider doing the same.

Thinking of you.

[Khimaira]

They wouldn't cry at a funeral (well, they might if they were forced to sit still for that long). They are too small. They would not remember me. That's why its a now or never situation. If I leave it much longer then the oldest DC would. There aren't many photos of me with them as I'm usually the one taking the photos. Dh would easily find someone else who could be a far better mother than me. I shout at them far too much, I find them terribly hard work. And I shouldn't, they are my children. I try my best to care for them but I'm sure it's not enough. I've pushed my oldest over before because he pushed my youngest over. That's not being a good mother. I've lost my temper and slapped him before. I have absolutely no patience with them and they irritate the hell out of me. Sometimes I see myself being irrational and losing it so quickly that it confuses them. I've just had to answer a questionnaire about DS to get him a referral because nursery thing he's behind in everything and I didn't even know how to answer the "what do you especially like about your child" question. That's not being a good mother. I don't do a fraction of the things I ought to be doing with them, I see others with all their craft projects, kids knowing how to read and write and I can barely get mine to sit at the table with me. I count a good day as one where we've been out for a walk (to so the shopping usually) and they are clothed and fed. That's not enough for them. The time before last when I was actually feeling suicidal I thought about taking them with me. In a couple of months I'm going to be looking after them all the time (at the moment they go to childcare for a bit but we can't really afford it so that will stop in a few months). It freaked me out because I would never want to harm them but I thought it was a good idea. What if that happens again and I'm home alone with them? I can't risk that. I need to get myself away from them and I know that I couldn't live separated from them. I don't know how safe it is for me to be with them. It sounds incredibly stupid that it stopped like a switch when I got my period. Last time it was ok, I just wanted to kill myself and I'm used to that but what happens if it happens again and again?

Why would I go to a doctor? They look at you, they ask you questions (what happens if you answer them wrong? I never know what the right answers are), they put their hands all over you. What happens if they decide/realise you are (going) crazy? It's not like I'm actually suicidal at the moment anyway, I'm just trying to work out the best thing to do. I promised myself I would see it through to New Year and then beyond that I don't know. It just makes sense, it's an option I should consider.

[sewingandcakes]

Please don't do this, get some help, either from a gp or Samaritans or other organisations. Small children are hard to look after, and at times it's hard to think of good things to say about them, but that doesn't in any way make you a bad mother.

You aren't thinking rationally at the moment, even if you think you are. It's very easy with depression to believe the negative thoughts in your head, and very hard to change your behaviour, but you can do it, and things will get better.

Is there anyone in RL you can talk to?

[LEMoncehadacatcalledSANTA]

Your rationality scares me because you are taking your emotions out of the equation, i understand that is because they are too painful for you just now.

"Why would i go to the doctor"? You go to the doctor because that is how you will access help. Everyone is different but one thing they will NOT do is touch you, you are going there with a mental health problem, there is absolutely no need for a physical examination, it just wont happen, i promise. If you are worried about that, you can ask for a nurse to be present. I am not an expert, but i have been where you are now - had the siimilar, if not the same thoughts, both after DD was born when i had PND and recently when i had a breakdown - this last time was much worse. I would make these reasons in my head why my DDs would be better without me.

I was where you are - but the difference was I knew i was in danger and i didn't feel safe so i went to the doctors. I told my doctor, who i get on with well to be fair, what i was feeling and that i needed help. I was referred to the CMHT and seen the following week by a counsellor/psychiatrist for an assesment. I had already started on anti-depressants and was waiting for them to start working. There were plenty of questions yes, but nothing that required "the right answer" there isn't one, but these people are trained and can glean alot from those conversations. I managed with the help of my DP to get to a place in my head when i felt safe and was put on the list for counselling - the lady from the mental health place phoned me every couple of days to see how i was, i was given instant access to my GP and telephone numbers to call if i felt unsafe. There was no drama, no question of admission into hospital (i woldnt have wanted this, like you, the thought of being away from my DD is too much for me) it was all very calm, friendly even - the most iimportant thing - the ADs did their job and I have stopped counselling now - iim not 100% but i know i am not going to one day walk in front of a train. I take pleasure in little things - a nice cup of tea, a glass (or three) of wine - spending time with my DD.

How old are your children? Please don't beat yourself up about not being super crafty mum - WTAF is that all about anyway, the need to produce all these wonderful creations? sod that for a game - that is why nursery was invented, i try with the craft thing, im no good at it - my dd is right now sat at the table decorating biscuits - from a packet that i brought from the co-op - she's asked me to help but im actually quite stressed at the moment so she is having to do it herself, shes doing ok - im not a perfect parent by a very long way, i shout, i get stressed over the tiniest of things and im a bit shit when it comes to playing with DD. She is 8 now - she tells me im the best mum in the world, i tell her "well, im the only one you have!" And thats it really isn't it - im a bit rubbish at this parenting lark but my DD doesn't see that - i am her mum, i am her reality, she guages it on me. Yeah other mums do baking and drawing and such like - i am just not that mum - and that is ok, i have come to realise that mum is trying too hard!

What support do you have wiht the children just now? are you getting them out to playgroup? are they at school? Do you have a surestart or children's centre near you? If you go to your GP, one of the things they can do is point you in the direction of support - i used to go to homestart playgroup, it was my lifeline when DD was young - it was brilliant, i'd walk in, one of the helpers would play with DD and someone would put a cup of tea in my hand, sometimes id talk to other mums, other times i'd just sit quietly and watch the children play. Once a week i'd do this, it made such a difference. I didn't know it was available, i came across it by accident, if i'd asked at the docs i would have known before.

I hope you are feeling better - i don't know what has made you feel this way, but please know that it can get better. You are not well - if you had the flu, you wouldnt be questioning the use of going to the doctor and getting treatment - its much the same with our heads, only we are a bit more complicated.

Sorry for the epic post - been thinking about you all day x

[Khimaira]

I'm ok. No different to normal. If I had the flu, I wouldn't be going to the doctor... And that's not true what you say. I foolishly listened once to someone who told me to go to the doctor if I was feeling suicidal. So I did. They sit you down in a chair the nurse takes your hands and a doctor stands behind you (so you can't get to the door) and holds you by the shoulders whilst the nurse asks you questions and forces your head up so you have to look at her. It took every ounce of my, I don't know, energy, willpower, whatever to get myself out and convince them to let me go. I don't know how I managed it and I'm certainly not going to put myself in that situation again. And I don't even know if this GP speaks English. I daren't risk it. I start to panic even at the thought of going to the doctor, I won't go unless it's a last resort.

Why isn't it the best way to try and make a decision? It's not too painful, I don't feel any emotion when I think about it really. It's just what it is. I don't think I can think through emotions at the moment. It's too foggy. My children are 4 and 1. I was going to do some craft today with them but then DC1 ran to the toilet and started retching so they watched tv all day long. That's a very scary thought that I am their reality. My 1 yr old was very cuddly this afternoon and excited she could watch so much tv, bouncing all over me and giving me hugs. All I can feel is guilt because she deserves so much better than what I can give her.

No school yet, there's a playgroup we go to but it's parental supervision and DC1 is a nightmare so I have to watch him like a hawk. They also go to gym but that is also obviously with me and he is so disobedient I spend half the time pulling him off the apparatus and trying to catch him from doing dangerous things. They go to childcare but that will stop soon as we can't afford it any more. There is someone I could potentially talk to in rl, but I couldn't deal with it, and told him I was going to take a break for a bit. I feel too guilty taking up his time.

[HoopHopes]

Well your one experience of telling a medical experience is not normal and is not what most people here would have experienced. Most would not restrain someone. Some may just listen. Some would offer medication or referral somewhere if desired.

Are you in the UK? If not maybe treatment is different.

If in UK could you talk to a HV if not wanting to see a gp. They can offer support. I think part of you is seeking help otherwise you would not be asking. Although totally hear that part of you is contemplating suicide.

A psych told me that some people consider suicide as a way to protect them, as life and stresses can be overwhelming. So what help do you need to be able to want to live?

[LEMoncehadacatcalledSANTA]

I am shocked and appalled by your experience with the doctor :( It really sounds wrong and i can promise you its not like this and you must have been very unlucky to find yourself in that situation, could you take someone with you?

You really sound quite unwell and i don't want to say the wrong things to you and make you feel worse.

Would you consider phoning the samaritans? 08457 90 90 90

TV all day long is fine, it really is. The fact you are worrying about your DC is enough to tell me you are a good mum, but you wont see that right now.

Do continue to talk on here if it helps, i don't have the answers but happy to listen, even if i do say the wrong thing, you can vent on here.

[Fragglewump]

I think you sound very depressed and in a couple of weeks with the right antidepressants you might feel very very differently. You are able to be calm and rational about suicide because you are not very well. The bottom line is you aren't a bad mum. Your children love and need you. I know that everything feels terrible and that it can't get better but I promise you it can.

[sewingandcakes]

My HV was the first person I told about my depression, and she was fantastic. She really listened to me, didn't patronise me by saying things like "you poor thing", and pinpointed back to me the reasons why I was depressed. She has been visiting me for as long as I feel I need, and referred me (with my consent) for outreach support, and CBT, which, along with antidepressants from my GP, have made a massive difference.

My outlook on life is so different now to only 6 months ago, and I would urge you to talk to someone about this, as it does need you to take that first step.

How are things with DH? Is he supportive with the children, and does he know how you feel?

[Khimaira]

That was in the UK (12 years ago). I'm not any more and have less trust in the health service here than I do in the NHS. There are no HVs here. I think you might have a point Hoop, it seems a safe, almost comforting option.

Things with DH are fine. Not exactly sure what you mean by supportive with the children. Childcare is my job he plays with them in the evenings when he is home, usually helps with bath and bed. And no.

[Ehhn]

The things you've identified as poor parenting is just normal parenting! Being bored by them, being frustrated and angry. There are many posts on here by women feeling bad because they've just smacked their child, or yelled, or slammed a door. People have even threateNed to abandon their kids. All said in the heat of the moment and all regretted, but said nonetheless. Kids can get over it and families move on.

Bugger crafty stuff. Some people are great at it, some aren't. I spend a few minutes swearing at making a bracelet and then give up. I'm mostly utterly crap with kids and pretty much don't like any non-family under 8s. I find them annoying and mind numbing. However, I'm great at teaching kids stuff and getting them to do things, so I focus on the few things (which aren't many) that I do well. Also I find them much cuter when dressed in bear outfits, so I like to put them in them. And playing horses. Like you going for a walk - you teaching them to love life's simple pleasures in the fresh air, to chatter with each other, see some nature or more of the city. They will take positives from it.

The fact that your one year old snuggles up to you shows the deep bond your dc has formed with you. You are the centre of their world and they honestly don't give a monkeys about whether that centre is off kilter or imperfect. Kids don't mind watching tv for a day and,despite some of the views on here, certainly won't turn them into terrible people. In fact, some educational programmes are shown to have a positive impact on learning attainment. Ok, so they may be too young to know what a funeral is, but they will know if you aren't there for cuddles and bedtimes.

I hope you are feeling a bit better and that your dc has recovered from the vomiting.

[HoopHopes]

Could you book yourself some private counselling sessions in January. Just to give you a chance? As if not in UK not sure what support is available to you as different systems etc. my friend abroad has no HV but then they see a paediatrician for any child illness and a gynae for pregnancy whereas here it is a paed only if referred by a gp and a nurse/midwife only for straight forward pregnancies - so different systems is what I am saying.

So find out what your system is and use it.

The psych I saw told me most people contemplate suicide at some time, it is natural as it is the way our brains are wired when we need to protect ourselves and keep ourselves safe. So if you can identify what is causing your brain to think through the option of ending your life forever then you can deal with that. It can be anything from loneliness and exhaustion and the drudgery of dealing with others to difficult memories to not having good self care for lots of reasons or for low self worth due to loss of career and other factors ... No one cause and effect. But what you are thinking is not unusual and bizarrely when I told my psych what your wrote she said she was happy I was safe ( and was not going to section me and hold me against my will) as it showed I was doing the best I could to keep alive!! So the next step is to improve things - what can you do to help you?

In UK if you went to a dr you would not likely be put into hospital - for a start there are few mental health beds, secondly UK hospitals are not therapeutic places but places of safety for those at risk of hurting themselves or others. Nor would social care be involved - well not unless one acted on those thoughts or self harmed and presented at a hospital for treatment. Care is in the community. Can be long waiting lists as there are too many people and not enough NHS staff but that is the route. Talking treatments, short courses and AD's are the usual route to try first. What can you access like that?

[Khimaira]

I don't know what there is, all I can find is you can have two sessions a year with a psychotherapist. But I don't know what criteria you gave to meet. We can't afford for me to go to the doctor this year anyway. I don't know what effect it would have on my insurance policy and I don't know how to find out. There is an equivalent of the Samaritans but how do I know they don't trace you? The children are watching tv again, have been for 3 hours. I need to go out and do the weekend shopping. It's cold, wet and windy and I made the mistake of going back to bed and now I can't bring myself to get out.

I don't know what help I need to be able to want to live. It seems an alien concept. I don't have the energy to think about anything at the moment. I don't know I have the energy to keep going either.

[sewingandcakes]

I think you need to tell someone how you have been feeling, posting on here is a good start if you don't feel able to tell anyone in RL. I understand the struggling to get out of bed thing, and the feeling of no energy; it's horrible.

Do you get any time off from looking after the kids, at the weekend or in the evenings? That's pretty essential, even if you just go for a walk or read a book in a cafe. Have some time where you can be something other than mum. Do you have friends that understand?

[HoopHopes]

If you are being serious about not wanting to live, then worrying about the effect on your insurance policy is pointless - as you will be dead and not need it. So why not see what you can get through:

• your private insurance
• going privately
• any charities
• seeing a psychologist twice in a year is a good start (here few people see psychologists, who are Dr's, but usually counsellors and mental health nurses, so there may be cheaper options for you?)

I do not know what country you are in, so no idea what the equivalent of the Samaritans is. Here Samaritans is good for crisis times, but do not give talking treatments and cannot by themselves provide mental health care - but are a useful and free addition.

Again, worrying about being traced is not an issue - I seriously doubt a version of Samaritans will trace people - you can always use a mobile phone and a false name? Why are you worried about people finding out? In the UK if people know, they can offer support - that is all.

Do you work? Would that help, if you had a job or if it is possible? Are there activities or groups to get involved with to give you an interest outside of the home/childcare/housework drudgery - anything to give you time off as it were?

[Khimaira]

Because it's an either or isn't it. If i do go ahead and kill myself then no, I won't need it. But if I don't and go to the doctor then it is an issue. Your logic is off. Of course I worry about being traced, I could lose the children couldn't I. No, I don't work, I've not been able to find anything and realistically I won't. Even my DH says that I am unemployable. I can't really do any activities or groups that are not child based as I can't leave the children.
Thank you for your replies. This is a bit of a self indulgent thread isn't it. It's a decision I have to make on my own, I know that. I thought it might help me get things clearer in my head that's all.

Friends that understand what? There are people I've met through baby groups, I don't know anyone else, but I doubt they would classify me as a friend. I called my "best" friend back in the uk the other night. "Hi, it's Khimaira." "Who?" "Khimaira." Silence. "Hello? It's Khimaira." "Oh, hi." Chat for a few minutes and I asked if she had a landline I could call her on. She said yes and gave me a number. I rang it and she never answered. So no, I have no friends who would understand anything.

[LEMoncehadacatcalledSANTA]

I think its very difficult, i do have one RL friend who "gets" the way i feel sometimes because she has been there. I am pretty open with people about my mental health but i don't talk about it apart from this one person.

It is not self indulgent to have this thread, if it is helping you clarify things - you must recognise that you need help, but i think you are struggling to find that support. Not knowing where you are, circumstances makes it difficult to offer ideas that will work. May i suggest you have a look at this thread its coming to an end but we will start a new one - have a read through it if you want, post if you like - you'll find that you are not alone and there will be ladies on there who, like those on this thread, will listen and care. I get alot of support there and find it a lifeline that people understand.

You can get past this - your children love you, you are a worthwhile person and you deserve to live, more than that, you deserve to be happy.

[HoopHopes]

Sorry my logic so off. I will make sure I do not say anything else so that others wiser than me with clearer heads than me can offer support for you.

[sewingandcakes]

I think you do clearly love your children and want to be with them; but you may be having irrational thoughts. You were concerned that your children would be taken away from you if you sought help, yet isn't suicide doing the same thing?

It's very easy to believe unhelpful thoughts, even when a part of you knows them to be irrational. I've only recently found this myself, at a CBT session, when I was asked to say why I thought I was a bad mother and couldn't actually back up my own statement.

Is DH the type that you could talk to about this? I think that having a regular break from child care would help you recall your true identity. Is there a crèche anywhere, or a group/activity you could go to that provides a crèche? What do you do when the children are in bed?

[Khimaira]

No, I don't.

hoop I'm sorry if I offended you. But your logic really makes no sense to me. It is hard for me to find out what is around as there is very little info in English.

Yes and no. The thought of being forced away from my children and trapped somewhere not able to be with them... The other way there is peace. The knowledge that I can't mess up their lives any more, that they don't have my bad influence on them, that they will be much better cared for if I am out of the picture. I'm not sure that is irrational is it?

No. I have only just told DH that I used to see a counsellor. He said he would call and speak to him, but he hasn't. I don't know that I can talk about this to anyone. There is no group/activity I know of that we can afford, we have nothing spare. When they are in bed I tidy the place, either hang out/collect or fold the washing. Then it's already 10 or later so get ready for bed so I don't disturb DH and attempt to sleep (aka read around on mumsnet!)