I'm not being as confrontational as the title suggests, honest, just curious.

I'm facinated at the number of conversations I've had with friends recently who seem to spend huge amounts of energy nagging reluctant kids to practice the piano or whatever. One perfectly pleasant woman won't let her 9 year old have anything to eat in the morning until he's done 20 minutes instrument practice, another trades minutes of practice time for minutes of tv/computer time. This kid has been begging for at least two years now to stop lessons but she won't let him as she feels it's good to play an instrument.

With three kids obviously I know how important it is to encourage "sticking at things", and I don't let my kids chop and change at a whim. Money spent on instruments is obviously also a factor. I do however wonder what is the point of insisting that kids continue with something that they really don't want to do. Surely "extra-curricular activities" should be something that kids enjoy doing, and a bit of a treat away from the usual school work, homework etc. What do you think?

DD is only 5 so not too much experience of this yet. I do have to bribe her to do violin practice. She wants to do cello soon so I'm telling her that she has to show she can stick with the violin before we'll do cello. I don't make her do practice daily though, once or twice a week.

If she tells me that she truly hates it at some point I'll let her give up at the end of the year.

She did tennis camp today for the first time and I was in two minds about getting a racquet for her in case it's a two minute wonder. I did anyway and I think she enjoyed it. We're not a particularly sporty family so I don't think I'd make her stick with a sport that she hated (memories of always being the last picked on any team).

i dont know if bribiong means that they dont like it though does it? thugh i suppose begging for two years does.

my daughter does dancing atm she is back to being obsessed with dance class. she eats, sleeps and breathes dancing.

i am prepared to 'persuede' her to keep going to classes when this wears off as i let her leave last year and now she is upset that she is not as far on as what she was. she has no competition classes or troupes etc. she is just a normal new starter again. she probably wont be in the x mas show as much as she would have been either.

if it becomes clear that she hates it rather than she just cannot be bothered or would rather do something else that day then i will let her stop.

although with dd if she doesnt want to do something she does not do and no amount of bribery or persuesion will change her mind.

Well, I only really insist on practice where they have begged to learn the instrument and we have eventually paid out £000s on buying their own. I refuse to see that money go to waste.

Actually, DS1 is learning the saxophone (his request) and has opted for Music GCSE, so it's really important that he practice. He needed to have his own instrument so we took the money for it out of his building society account and have promised to pay it back when we are satisfied that he does sufficient practice. He is doing slightly more than before but not enough to warrant any refund so far.

Do your dc learn an instrument sunnydelight?

Mastering an instrument is not easy for anyone, and basically comes through hard slog of practice. This is a shock to most children and is not something they would do 'naturally'. So generally they do need encouragement, cajolement, rules and routines, and threats!

If you are paying for music lessons and they are doing very little practice, you ay as well be burning £20 notes.

So yes, I do insist on regular practice.
If/when they want to stop learning I will allow them too (after a few weeks' cooling off/reflection in case it's a hasty decision).

It depends on how much they wanted to do it in the first place. If they begged to do it then I would give them a time scale of at least a term and say that they had to practise until then, but could then give it up if they still didn't want to put in the effort. This is because it is difficult to start with and they may enjoy it if they try.
If they are playing it because you wanted them to, I would let them give it up earlier.

Nope. ds1 is learning piano and keyboard and practices when he wants too.
But he didn't start till 13 and chose to do it so maybe thats why I don't have to nag him?

have just this minute written a cheque for dd's music lessons
for the yr . £211
she's 16 and still doesn't practice regularly unless she's rehearsing for a performance or exam.
we have also paid a fortune for flute

I don't nag her now but she did need reminding a lot when she was younger-glad we did it now as she's doing music A level and it's her favourite subject.

ds1 saved up and bought his own digital piano/keyboard. Buys his own sheet music too. He has lessons most saturday and sometimes I have one too. But I am naughty and rarely get time to practice.

I think if, overall, they want to learn the instrument, then it's fine for a parent to encourage/nag/cajole/etc to get the practice done on a regular basis. But if a child has been begging for 2 years to be allowed to give it up, then I don't think that's going to change into them being keen to do it.

There's a difference between encouraging children to stick at things and put the effort in, and forcing them to do something that they have absolutely no motivation or wish to do.

With my DS, we asked every year or so whether he wanted to continue and whether he was happy with the instrument he was learning. If he'd really wanted to change or stop, then we'd have accepted that - though I guess we'd have suggested carrying on for a term first, to make sure it wasn't just a blip.

I'm qualified to teach piano rosin, so I know it doesn't come overnight, but I loved to play so didn't have to be nagged into it (and hours playing the piano counted as hours of revision for my leaving cert )

I guess the key thing is whether it was the parent or child's desire to learn in the first place. I'm gutted that neither of my boys have shown any interest in learning, but didn't see the point in forcing them into it when they wanted to do other stuff instead.

Ds is a drummer. He puts his ipod speakers on, usually on a Saturday and Sunday morning and thrashes along to T Rex, The Verve, Arctic Monkeys etc.

I never try to make him play if he doesn't want to.

He had 18 months of lessons but even then just played when he felt like it. He's in a band so they get a fair bit of practice by their own choice.

with my dd we agreed that I will only pay for lessons if she practices. Sometimes I do need to encourage her to practice, she doesn't always do it if not reminded - but she understands that ultimately it is her decision to have lessons or to stop. So I guess I do bribe her in a way - no practice = no lessons.

I'm the same: no practice; no lessons.

Also, with 'difficult' instruments like the piano the first four years or so can be hard work. If you can get them to work through the pain barrier they may end up with something very worthwhile. I think it's worth doing: if the child has a modicum of aptitude. My son has gone through periods of wanting to give up piano. But now he's getting some attention at school for his jazz, he's pleased he kept going. I'm pleased I made him.

If he'd been utterly unmusical, I'd have given up.

silver birch - I have a similar approach with my DS. He started piano at 5.6 - at his request, 18 mths ago. He is generally pretty good at practising most days. However, if we go through a lean patch I just mention the 'if you don;t practise, I'll stop lessons' and he soon gets going. He does actually enjoy it. He has recently started recorder at scholl, based on the same principle, although I did have to point out that he would need to continue piano practice too if he wanted to carry on learning that!

Yes, my children practise every day. They don't have to be 'forced' to do it because they know it is the rule that if you do an instrument then you practise every day.

Ds1 (7) does 30 mins piano and 20-30 mins violin every night. He also does orchestra twice a week, and has a weekly lesson.

Dd (5) does about 10 mins cello every night.

There is virtually no point in learning if you don't practise every or nearly every night. If the child can't agree to this (obviously there are exceptions where you can't practise, but these should be exceptions and not the rule), then they should find a different activity.

I do sound militant, but this is because I am a musician and a piano teacher, and I KNOW that you need to put the hours in, and I have seen pupils who make lots of progress in the lessons, only to lose it all over the week because they don't go to the piano. It is disheartening for them and it is SO frustrating for the teacher!

I have written this many times on MN

My kids are all pretty good musicians (not preening just fact)

When they were younger I opaid them to practice.

10p per practice adn £100 if they did 6 practices per week

Maybe I am lucky that they took to it.

Would not trade food or computer time.
Also school encourages practice in school time too.

£1 not £100

lol at your £100 beety!

I don't have to do it now as they are so far ensconced it is jsut part of who they are.

I have to nag my ds aged 10 to do his guitar. Have told him I will end his lessons after Xmas if he doesn t do it without being reminded. I'm hoping for that moment, Beetroot describes where they practice because it s who they are. But still waiting..

Yes I do have to nag dd to practice her clarinet, but she does not want to give up her lessons, she just doesn't like practicing at home.

If she told me she didn't want to play anymore I would let her stop. And I only make her do 10 minutes practice each evening.

To my shame we only do about 12-15 minutes a day on each instrument; more, obviously, when there are exams around. I'd rather they did 12 intensely focused minutes than 30 grudging ones.

Ideally it would be 30 intense minutes.

beety - once it's routine then it's not a problem - same with ds1, he just does it now, he knows that after tea is practice time, and you're right, it's part of him.

Atm dd is VERY keen and practises the cello whenever she can. But I'm sure that is 'just started enthusiasm'. Otoh, she sees ds1 practising, and me and dh practising so she may just accept that this is what we do.

One of the reasons ds1 learns the piano is to realise that things don't always come without hard work. At school he finds it very easy to do things so they are 'good enough' and they rarely make him redo stuff to make it neater for example. With piano his teacher doesn't move on until the piece is near perfect - so he is learning that 'good enough' isn't always OK and sometimes hard work is necessary.

He does enjoy the piano and is hoping to add recorder and guitar, but this is on the understanding that the practise happens without too much ranting on my part.

I didn't nag ds1 until the guitar teacher phoned me last week to say he obviously hasn't been practising.

Bridie - what level are your kids.

15 mins is pretty good

mine did 5 when they first started

I agree, 15 mins is fantastic if it's every day. What's not ok is 15 mins the morning of your lesson then nothing more for the rest of the week!

Ds1 is very good and always does his piano practise without nagging.

Ds2 is a different matter - I have to nag him so much. However, he is streets ahead of ds1 so I think it is hard to persuade him that doing more would improve his playing. I think the logic is "I'm already better than ds1 anyway so what's the point?"

Ds plays the guitar non stop ..have to nag him to stop

Both have done Grade 3, Beetroot. One is now doing Jazz Grade 3, and the other is just playing for fun for a while. I hope we'll move on to Grade 4 in due course, but I'm waiting for the old teacher to retire.

They have both started the guitar and one will also be doing cornet.

Oh dear. We just can't fit in any more practice.

She plays twice on Tuesdays and on Saturday and Sunday. Is that really bad? I asked her teacher if she needed to do more but he said she was ok.

Should we be doing more? DD is 5.

arfishy - in reply to a post further up - be careful about getting your dd to do violin AND cello - they can be quite confusing I think as fingerings are different and bow holds are different, although they feel like they should be similar. If she wants to do cello, then perhaps a straight switch over would be better.

Dd has just started the cello, and LOVES it!

(She is 5 too - was 5 in August).

I used to beg mine to give it up (the violin). Her lack of practising and the rows this created were horrible. But she refused to give it up until...all of her friends had as well.

My hubby and i are bth music teachers. Our son never practices and it infuriates us but tomoro i am starting it supervised!!!!

I won't say I have to nag DD1 to practise the violin, but I do have to remind her a lot. It isn't that she doesn't want to do it, she just doesn't think of doing it without a reminder.
The main problem is that she demands an audience for her practising, which can be inconvenient. The other problem is that if she doesn't think she is playing well, she throws a strop, and storms around crying because she is rubbish and she will never be any good and she might as well stop now etc etc.
It's all a bit emotional and wearing.

My parents never made me practice. And I never did music exams either. I wasn't going to be a musician and was doing it for fun. I played in an orchestra and had lessons for 7 years, and then continued to play in orchestras and wind bands after I left home.

DS had his first clarinet lesson today, and I don't know whether I can be as relaxed as my parents were with me. We shall see

You right Tshell, DD's teacher said it would be very hard to do both at the same time. One's treble and one's bass, so the strings are reversed (or something along those lines).

I'm hoping she'll stick with the violin or she'll go back to the start with the cello (agree we'd have to do a straight swap) and be upset because all of her friends are in instrumental groups and she's not. I suspect she wants to do cello because she can do it sitting down [we are not known for our athleticism].

I have a feeling tennis is cancelled today so we might practice scales. I have a lovely new scales and arpeggios book for her. Mwahahah.

Oh, LGP, that scene you've painted sounds very, very familiar

I HATED my piano lessons and Dad said you will regret giving up. At the time (about ten) I swore I never woud regret it .....but have done for at least the last twenty years!

Try differnt ways to practice, different places, different tunes, practices with a little "band" of thers also learning.

DD1 has just started secondary school and has been invited to join the school band, she is thrilled.

Glad I'm not alone, Tinker!

It's not so bad with dd(12) now, but she's always been a more amenable child. However, it's always been a massive struggle with ds(9) even though he's very musical as he hates having to work at things - and he was desperate to start the piano as he's always wanted to play the church organ. TBH I was just like him, and my parents had a terrible problem getting me to practise. I agree with people who say that it's a question of breaking through the 'pain barrier' and I can remember when it suddenly occurred to me that I could play proper music and it began to make sense.

I was v strict with mine when little, they all practised religiously every day & even (apparently) enjoyed it.

None of them play anything now although DD2 (23) is nearly almost just about at the point of taking up flute again (she got up to Grade 7)

hijacky wave to wendyweber (and yes, it is bloody late here and I should be in bed - looking up alcohol intake and breastfeeding on kellymom.......)

Hello, gggl

It's late here so it is really really late there - go to bed, you bad thing! (I am going now, honest!)

have had bery boppy evening - but yes, should go to bed......

Why are you looking up alcohol intake/breastfeeding? Checking if you can have another glass? Wondering whether to make DS2 wait until the morningnow? What?

went to booksigning, had apero then went out to dinner and had bit less than half bottle of wine, then went to bar and drank coke (!) - have come home sober but with guilty conscience. Will bosom him as usual in morning.

Thankfully the author had zingy shoes but crap wine was on offer, otherwise would have had more to drink

arfishy - the difference as far as I can see in fingering (being a non-string player) is that firstly there are different strings - violin goes G-D-A-E, cello is C-G-D-A. This isn't necessarily a problem, but I reckon the different fingering (because of the relative sizes of the instruments) would be confusing because they are similar otherwise. On a violin, say you're on the D string, as each finger goes down you play E-F#-G-A. If you want to play F natural then you move your 2nd finger into 'low' position (next to the 1st finger). But on the cello on the D string you would put your fingers down to play E-Fnatural-F#-G. Which is quite different. And the bow hold is different as well.

On the other hand, I know a girl who switched and because of the violin experience very quickly started cello in orchestras etc. Because the cello parts are often easier I think (especially in beginner groups) so it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

DD (7) does violin with school and almost never practises... yet, her teacher is satisfied with her progress; she was the only girl in her starters intake (3 other girls) to do a solo at the end of year recital (preen moment).

Obviously I would prefer her to practise and progress faster, but I can live with things as they are. New teacher just started with the school, maybe she'll put pressure on DD (and maybe not). I feel DD is doing something different for fun and I can afford it (£5/week).

I would pay her to practise if it would work, but I know 10p or £1/week wouldn't be enough incentive.

DS tried piano for 6 months and his teacher was keen, said DS had a knack for it, but DS quit when I insisted about practice. I don't want to pressure DD in same way.

I think the practice issue really comes to the fore when they're taking exams. You simply have to put the time in at, say, piano grade 4, just to learn all the scales alone.

Thanks tshell, that's interesting. I know doing both would confuse the life out of me. Fingers get automatic after a time don't they? I'm going to gently encourage staying with violin although it's good to hear that the cellists can be included in groups quite early on.