My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Find advice on the best extra curricular activities in secondary schools and primary schools here.

Extra-curricular activities

Violin teaching question

9 replies

maggiethecat · 16/01/2011 20:14

Dd has been learning for a couple of years and enjoys it. She has been learning third position for about 2 months now (grade 3 level) and I am not sure about how she is being taught this.

So, she started a new piece and the teacher marked out which strings she should be playing on since it's not as immediately obvious as for first position (she's gone from first straight to third).

Dd asked me, what I thought was a valid question, - 'how do I know just by looking at a piece that I should be playing 3rd position?' I didn't know and asked the teacher who said it's a bit tricky so dd needs to be told by her.

Is this how it should be? should a child not be able to work out when she should be playing in 3rd (or any other position appropriate to level of playing) and should she not be able to work out which of G,D,A,E strings she should be playing on?

Thanks for any help.

OP posts:
Report
Tangle · 18/01/2011 00:38

I don't play the violin, but I do play the cello.

To be fair to your DD's teacher, it isn't a question that has a uniform straightforward answer. On the cello I can play a middle C on any of the 4 strings - most easily on the A string (1st position) or D string (4th position). Which I'd use would depend on a number of factors including what notes were around it and the style of the piece. (About the only time I'd play the same note on the G string would be to play fast passage work in the octave up to the C above without shifting around all over the shop or for tonal effect, and whilst I can play that note on a C string I'd probably try not to or would do it as a harmonic).

I'll often choose to use 4th position on the D string in preference to 1st position on the A string, just because I prefer the tone that my D string produces - but if the melodic line I have to play goes above that C then it may be more appropriate to play it on the A string to get continuity of tone. Or I might choose to shift up the D string to position myself for higher work on the A string (rather than having to launch up the finger board from 1st position).

For lots of music, get the fingering right and the notes fall beautifully under the hand (a fantastic example is the opening few bars of the Prelude from Bach's Cello Suite No 1, played by Rostropovitch - although the notes are spanning well over an octave, you don't have to shift at all and its "easy" to play the right notes. If only I could play them anywhere near that well...)

Knowing what string to play a given note on is a skill that comes with time and experience. When I was doing Grade 8 my teacher still used to do a lot of my fingering, although over time I was having more input and we'd discuss alternatives with their pros and cons. Now I've been playing nearly 30 years and I still sometimes ask for advice from other cellists if I can't find a fingering I'm happy with. And there often isn't a unique answer - in an orchestra you might see different string players within a section doing different fingerings for the same passage - as different fingerings will be easier for different players, depending on their individual instrument, style and technique.

So (after all of that Blush) I think that the fact your DD is starting to think about this is fantastic and shows she's really thinking about how she's playing - but I can see why her teacher gave the answer she did, especially if she didn't have much time available for a more in depth response.

Report
purplepidjin · 18/01/2011 00:52

The short answer I use (violin and viola) is: to avoid changing strings a lot

For example, if you're playing something in D, and most of the notes are around the D above middle C, then 3rd position on the A string (or 2nd later on) position would be logical because you don't have to keep moving your hand around.

I was taught to be a "lazy" player - move your hand as little as possible to produce the maximum effect Smile

And congratulations to your DD on getting so far in a relatively short space of time

Report
MrsShrekTheThird · 18/01/2011 01:04

I play violin and viola and would pretty much say the same as purple - to avoid moving or to get better tone. And on the whole that comes with experience as your dd learns to read the music in the true sense as well as figuring out the notes, iyswim. For beginners like your dd, the fingers and shifts are usually written in, mostly written to move on a first finger as this is the easier one to learn and then on the other fingers. Third position is always taught after first and half, and then fifth (grade 5-ish). She is likely to learn other positions later - at which point violinists realise that the whole fingerboard is there for playing on and you have to know where all the notes are Grin

The tone in third position on the D and A strings are more mellow than playing in first position on the higher strings, again this sort of comes along with experience. Try not to let her worry too much yet. At that level I started playing in local children's orchestras and string groups, and have had a life of wonderful experiences through amateur orchestras, including meeting dh.
Well done your dd for getting this far, and she's obviously quite musical to be asking the question in the first place. I really hope she enjoys playing for a long time to come.

Report
purplepidjin · 18/01/2011 07:26

Just FYI, expecially Tangle - I struggled with 2nd position for a long time. There's a passage in Jupiter from Holst's Planets that's entirely in 2nd, so I wrote it in the (borrowed) part when I was in Youth Orchestra.

Several years later, the fingering was still written in, even though other stage directions had been rubbed out - the parts belong to the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, and AFAIK, it's still there Grin

Report
maggiethecat · 18/01/2011 13:20

That is all helpful - thank you.

I'm realising that there are many different ways to play a piece and I think she understands that as well. Heard her playing Babbino Caro in first position and she agreed that it did not sound as nice as in third.

I did notice, MrsShrek, that there is a '1' over some of the notes and that should be an indicator - this was the kind of visual clue that I thought might help.

I knew that I would have a very short period of being able to help dd work pieces out but thank goodness for MN!

OP posts:
Report
MrsShrekTheThird · 18/01/2011 18:36

yep, that's it, usually you get a 1 over one note then a dash and 1 over the next note, meaning that you play both with the first finger (your index finger) Wink
they'll do the same somewhere later along to show when to shift back to first position. As a general rule for learners, you'll change on the same finger, iyswim, it will be 1-1 or 2-2. Only in more insane orchestral parts will you shift on a 'finger change'.
she sounds like she's a flippin natural :)

Report
Tangle · 18/01/2011 20:09

(Another visual clue used in cello parts is to put roman numerals for the string - I'm assuming violins do something similar)

purple - I've had some fantastic fingerings off library parts (and some that are just bizarre - we're doing Tchaik 5 at the moment and some of the fingering in there seems completely nonsensical to me so they won't be there much longer. Still a great play though :o)

Report
maggiethecat · 18/01/2011 20:54

Tangle, that piece was beautiful, so seemingly effortless! I never had much of an appreciation of classical music and never learned an instrument but have more awareness now bcos of dd.

I find it fascinating that there are so many possibilities to playing a piece and equally so that dd will have the pleasure of discovery.

MrsShrek, the other person I know of who met her dh through the orchestra said they first played at aged 8 - think I may have to watch carefully who's sitting next to dd Grin

OP posts:
Report
purplepidjin · 18/01/2011 21:16

Argh, Tchaik 5!! I've never played that well in my life, only ever seemed to get it as a last minute filler in Youth Orchestras!

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.