Is it legal to work 40 hours for no pay? And 'Pakistanis' don't count

[Namechangearoonie123]

16 year old has worked 40 hours this week 'commission only'. Been dropped off in local areas to make appointments for a salesperson to call and give quotes for windows.

40 hours in the heat, today she visited over 100 homes. No escape as they were picked up and dropped off miles away and it got later and later they were picked up.

I've searched all over the net and got conflicting info.

1. It seems to say that it is legal providing it doesn't come to less than minimum wage. If it does the difference must be made up.
   

1. The conflicting info is that it can be 'commission only' with no pay if they're self employed.
   

I don't know what the truth is, does anyone know the actual answer?

And 'Pakistanis don't count' - she made one appointment on the first day to be told today that it 'doesn't count as they were Pakis' and 'no Asians count'

It cannot possibly be legal to have 16 year olds walking 40 hours in this heat to knock on 400 plus doors for no money, can it?

[Politelydeclining]

Based on your second last paragraph alone my daughter wouldn't be going back to work for that company.

[SchroSawMargeryDaw]

Sorry, I can't really offer much advice, just wanted to as is this for Weatherseal by any chance? If it is, run for the hills, I worked with them as a teen and they were shocking scam artists.

[Namechangearoonie123]

She's not, she had enough today after they told her that tomorrow they were staying out til 9pm tomorrow night as they were 'a shower of shite'.

[prh47bridge]

There is no conflict in the information you have found.

If someone is employed on a "commission only" basis the pay must come to at least the minimum wage.

If someone is self employed and contracts their services to a company on a commission only basis they are not an employee of that company so the company is under no obligation to pay the minimum wage.

[notapizzaeater]

Your poor daughter - hope they pay her

[Namechangearoonie123]

Hi prh, on the other thread I think you said that they still had to pay minimum wage.

Is it really legal to get a load of 16 year olds to accept that they are 'self employed'?

I cannot believe this is legal.

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

To be self employed they need to be registered as such with hmrc. There may some some leverage in that?

This is your second post about this, I think you need to get some rl legal advice as it seems a grey area.

[Namechangearoonie123]

Thanks, the definitely haven't got her to register as self employed

I've started this second post as I needed to check if it was legal now as she's not going in tomorrow. I also thought they would pay her for the lead she did get - £50, but today they said it didn't count as the family were Pakistani which I think is completely disgraceful

Mumsnets the best for legal advice anyway and she wouldn't be able to afford to get any somewhere else, she's just a kid.

Oh well, looks like it is legal if they describe her as self employed.

Still really sharp practise to recruit a load of kids and make them walk around in the heat for 10 hours reciting a script with no way of getting back to the town they live in for no pay.

[DiaDuit]

No OP they cant just describe her a self employed. There will be contracts that state this and she will have to register with HMRC. You sound like you are just accepting this?

[Namechangearoonie123]

If it was illegal I would create merry hell and intervene

I also don't see how an under 18 can make a contract. She may have signed something to say she agrees to be self employed but she won't have let HMRC know - would she or the company have to ?

It's only been 4 days though so I don't think they would have had to let them know immediately anyway.

[Catswiththumbs]

You can only knock doors until 8pm.

In the contract she signed she is responsible for registering as self employed and for any tax she is liable to pay, nothing to do with the "company"
Commission (for the role I had he misfortune of doing) was only paid once they had passed the cooling off period and entered into a contract.

Tbh she needs to cut her losses, quit and do something else. It's soul destroying shit work, she isn't going to make her fortune and I think the stress will cause you more problems than her(!)

[DiaDuit]

Look at her contract. She should have a copy of it.

[DiaDuit]

And yes, under 18s can sign employment contracts.

[LiberalLibertines]

I thought it was legal to work for a company on a commission only basis?
I've certainly heard of people doing that before.

The comment about the Pakistani lead not counting is outrageous though.

Glad she's not going back.

[Namechangearoonie123]

I'm really surprised that she can enter into a contract at her age.

I'm sure she has signed one and that she would he expected to register as self employed if she earned any money.

I'm hoping she has definitely cut her losses and won't go in tomorrow.

[Namechangearoonie123]

I really wish it was illegal so I could intervene

The company have still gained from her and the other children's labour though as they have now canvassed thousands of households and ruled them out to sell double glazing to .

I think they have made a real gain from her labour even though she didn't sell any appointments.

[SolidGoldBrass]

It's not technically illegal, as far as I know, but it's a profoundly unethical way to do business.

[Namechangearoonie123]

There were 10 children in her group today, they ruled out over a thousand households in one day.

[Catswiththumbs]

And like people said on your last thread, when you are self employed there is no minimum wage. She will have been told all this when she took the job, at the time when they said she will be making 100k in 10 months.

The grey area here is that these people aren't strictly self employed, as they are under strict instructions on when to be at work, where to go, what to wear etc. I linked to a court case on your last thread where they managed to claim loss of earnings. Try acas for some more information.

[FidelineAndBombazine]

I would be 'intervening' by publicising. Particularly the flagrant racism.

I'm sure the asian community (and everyone else) would appreciate the info when choosing where to buy their double glazing. I'll be boycotting for ever after reading your other thread anyway.

[notapizzaeater]

Can 16 year olds actually legally work that many hours ? I'd check with your councils rules and maybe use that as leverage for some money ?

[Namechangearoonie123]

They've only recruited the children for a month Cats and interestingly they've made no promises about big sums of money.

[Namechangearoonie123]

I did read your link

And I agree that they're not obviously self employed since they have no control over the area they canvas as they report to the office, told what area and then dropped off and picked up

[FidelineAndBombazine]

..and only work for one 'client'