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Compulsory overtime and childcare problem

26 replies

lizzywig · 21/07/2014 19:56

DH has to attend some mandatory training for work. It is detailed in his staff handbook (but not his contract, although the staff handbook forms his t&cs) and it's important he attends, he is happy to do the training. The training is held every three years. When the training was run last time it was during working hours. All staff work Monday to Friday and no one works on weekends. His contract says "Your hours of work are 40 hours per week". There is an overtime clause which says "You may be required to work overtime if and when this is necessary in accordance with the needs of the business".

The training has been arranged for a Saturday. DH found out about the training the last day before we went on holiday and now that we are back from holiday we are trying to sort out what to do.

The training is on a Saturday when I have plans. I am going to one of my oldest friends babyshowers and I am going to be godmother. I'm not a fan of the whole babyshower thing but my friend is and I don't want to let her down. This date has been on the calendar for a long time and I know my friend would be disappointed if I wasn't there. I would be disappointed if I wasn't there; even though they're not my sort of thing, she is after all a very close and special friend.

We have a 2.8yo DD who obviously cannot be left at home alone. DH went into work, explained the situation to the Deputy Manager as the Manager was not around and she said she would look into alternative dates and it was fine. When DH followed up with the Manager after not hearing anything, she apparently flipped out and said that he had to go.

I have thought about taking DD with me but she does not sit down and although she is a very well mannered, she is also into everything, wants to explore everything and has very little patience (not a clue where she gets that from!). Whenever we take her out we go armed with everything plus the kitchen sink but her attention span is short we usually have to leave places early. The upshot is that if I were to take her I really think that it would disrupt what is planned and DD would become so overinvolved in everything, that it would not be 'fair' on my friend. The day should be about her, not a hyperactive toddler running around. At this stage I haven't asked if I can take her. We have tried but failed to get a babysitter and tbh I also feel that it wouldn't be right to palm her off on a babysitter for half a day at the weekend, she is our responsibility. She is in nursery full time and I don't think it's right that neither of us are around for her, especially when in my case it's by choice.

I phoned ACAS to get a better understanding about where my husband stands with this. After all if he were a single parent, what would he do? I do rather feel that it's unfair that this should fall to me when my plans had been arranged for a long time. Equally I will cancel if that's what I have to do. I love my DD and am happy to stay at home but I know my friend will be upset.

ACAS said that the only 'rights' that my husband had were 'time off for dependents' and 'parental leave'. I knew this much already! I honestly thought that there would be some employment act which meant that parents could look after their children if no one else was available. ACAS said that time off for dependents could only be in the case of emergencies - does the lack of childcare qualify as an emergency? They also said that through custom and practice he works Mon-Fri and parental leave would therefore not apply as he is not contracted to work on a Saturday - besides which he would have to give 21 days notice and it's in two weeks time.

I'm sure I read on MN somewhere that if you had no childcare that under the equality act (or perhaps it was something else) that you should be allowed to look after your child if you do not have childcare. When he spoke to his manager she basically said "check your contract, you have to do it". He said we didn't have childcare and she said "tough". ACAS said that as training isn't in his contract he shouldn't have to do it - but it is in the staff handbook - they didn't comment on this. They also said that the overtime in his contract should be (again because of custom and practice) be within his usual working days, i.e. "we need you to stay an extra hour or two or three", as opposed to 3 or 4 hours on a Saturday.

His manager did say that there are alternative training sessions but from what DH has said it was said as more of a threat....the sessions she mentioned are over four hours (one way) away from us. So I suspect that if he doesn't do this local one that she will punish him by making sure that the alternative one is miles away. This would then take up over a full day and you can be certain that he wouldn't be paid overtime for the journey. Then there are the costs of getting him there... Sad

After all this is the woman who told all her staff that they had to come in for a full weekend (outside of their contract) and wouldn't be paid for it and wouldn't get overtime. She basically knows not a jot about personnel, managing staff or care and understanding....there's a very high staff turnover but that's another matter entirely!

Sorry for the essay, I didn't want to drip feed and feel quite fed up about the whole thing. I didn't really feel confident from what ACAS had said and was hoping for a bit of advice from you wise ladies.

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trilbydoll · 21/07/2014 20:28

I am not remotely qualified in employment law, but I am not sure about childcare being an excuse. Ultimately, you could hire an agency nanny. It would then be reasonable to ask for overtime or reimbursement of the cost I guess?

I really sympathise, and I can see where you are coming from. Maybe he should try asking for ££ for childcare and see if they offer another session?

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lizzywig · 21/07/2014 20:40

I didn't know there was such a thing as an agency nanny. How would one go about find out about reputable ones? We wouldn't be able to afford the cost, I've recently been made redundant and only just started a new job so funds are low. I wonder if they would pay the costs? I wonder if someone knows if that is their obligation as they want him to work outside of his contracted hours?

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IwishIwasmoreorganised · 21/07/2014 20:45

I honestly think that he doesn't have any excuse not to go if it's in the handbook and that forms his t&c's

Yes, it's a pita for you but that's it.

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Pico2 · 21/07/2014 20:49

I'd ask at your nursery - I've had nursery staff babysit at the weekend occasionally. Ours charge £7-8 ph and are first aid trained and obviously would know your DD.

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SoonToBeSix · 21/07/2014 20:50

Very lengthy post for something so simple. You have a child, your dh needs to work so you look after her. It's a shame you will miss the baby shower but that's just life. Work is more important than parties. It also looks very unprofessional that your dh has made just an issue of it.

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littleducks · 21/07/2014 20:53

I think you should ask if any of the nursery staff could babysit for you at a good rate.

I don't think you have any rights and it will not look good to your husband employer.

I don't think that it's worth making a fuss about.

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NickNacks · 21/07/2014 20:54

Gosh yes this is a pita but it happens to everyone. No they aren't obliged to pay for it (why would they?) and yes you'll have to arrange something, either cancelling it paying for childcare.

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Frontier · 21/07/2014 21:01

There have to be more options than just you to have DD for the day but if there really aren't any you're comfortable with then you have to cancel.

It doesn't really matter what DH's rights are, if this is a once in 3 years thing and they've given him reasonable notice, he likes his job and intends to stay at the company then he needs to go, regardless of whether you can find a loophole in the contract/law that says he doesn't.

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itsbetterthanabox · 21/07/2014 21:02

I think it would be different if he were a single parent but his workplace know he isn't. It sounds like his work is more important on this occasion. Hire a babysitter for the time and you can still go.

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Marlinspike · 21/07/2014 21:03

Time off for family emergencies wouldn't apply here as your DH has had notice of the Saturday. Do you have any family that could help, or a friend that could look after DD? It's a pain, but I'm sure others are in the same boat, and I think you are just going to have to get on with it

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Justtoobad · 21/07/2014 21:05

As what has been said by
Soon

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DocDaneeka · 21/07/2014 21:08

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill OP. I have to attend training and exams etc out of contracted hours. dH has to miss stuff. It is unfortunate but It's is 'only' a party. You might have a point if you had to miss life saving scheduled surgery if he had to attend a training day, but a baby shower? !

This sort of thing will crop up from time to time. You either need to fork out for an child care, or go th the party with your DD, maybe not go for as long or something, take something entertaining for her, but really this is a non issue I'm afraid. Really not worth pissing off an otherwise good employer over this.

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fanjobiscuits · 21/07/2014 21:08

I would check with friend and take DD

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lizzywig · 21/07/2014 21:09

Maybe I am blowing it out of proportion but this is one thing on a list of many. It may not be unreasonable but when there have been many lots of unreasonable things and you are greeted with aggression it does feel unreasonable. It's not the end of the world but its not so unreasonable to not want to let my friend down. The post was so long because I didn't want to drip feed and because I simply do not know how to summarise things - apologies. I always talk too much!!!

Ironically DH works in DD's nursery so no chance of nursery staff babysitting as they are all going. He certainly didn't look unprofessional, he asked nicely and explained a dilemma for something that falls outside the usual remit. The deputy was happy to help, the manager who is obstructive with all staff did not want to help. Fine it's her call. I don't think I was unreasonable for finding out whether he was in his rights to find an alternative solution.

ACAS seemed to think the training didn't form part of his contract as it's outside of his terms through custom and practice. Although it didn't sit comfortably with me. As I said in the OP I will happily suck it up if I have to. Out of interest what would happen to a single parent or what if we were going on holiday or had something booked? Rhetorical question really. Thanks for the feedback.

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Frontier · 21/07/2014 21:13

Ultimately I suppose Dh could just refuse but that wouldn't look good on him and I wouldn't ask my DH t do that.

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lizzywig · 21/07/2014 21:15

Sorry I started writing after 8 replies. In response to the others who kindly posted, DH loves his job so yes you're but they're not a good employer unfortunately. I do agree that yes you have to do things outside of contracted hours and yes there has been notice but I am genuinely interested to know that it's all very we'll having notice but what good is notice if you have plans. The training isn't scheduled training so it comes out of the blue. Are people honestly expected to put their life on hold?

I've probably posted so many times now you all think I'm nuts. I realise that by answering your questions I am blowing this out of proportion so I'm going to bed now. I have emailed the organiser to see if I can bring dd so will see.

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lizzywig · 21/07/2014 21:16

Frontier - gosh no I would never dream of asking DH to do that.

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Middleagedmotheroftwo · 21/07/2014 21:17

Surely you can find someone who would have DD for the day?

You have 3 options:

  1. Find someone to look after DD
  2. Take DD with you
  3. Not go to party.


Just chose one. Its not rocket science.
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WeAllHaveWings · 21/07/2014 21:19

How can the training happen for everyone Mon-Fri when there are children in the nursery?

Realistically, if the training is on a Saturday, if they rescheduled for one person not being able to make it would never happen.

The training is only once every 3 years. They have offered alternative training at another date, presumably at another location hence the travelling, which is very reasonable of them (and your dh could do this if you were going on holiday).

So you have the choice, find childcare for your dd or take up the other training date. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

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IwishIwasmoreorganised · 21/07/2014 21:29

I think if you had holiday booked (and leave authorised) before the date of the training was given then work could not insist that you go, but if you asked for leave after the date was known then work could not authorise it.

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bigkidsdidit · 21/07/2014 21:32

Just take her with you, or don't go. Blimey, this is such a common situation. It happens.

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HermioneWeasley · 22/07/2014 12:53

Arrange a play date/ owe a friend a favour or take her with you.

Not fancying having her at a baby shower does not trump your DH's contractual obligation to work (presumably he's being paid overtime to attend the training on a weekend?)

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flowery · 22/07/2014 15:00

It's not about expecting people to put their life on hold. Any employee's childcare arrangements, either for regular hours or extra hours, are not the employer's concern. When those childcare arrangements unexpectedly fail for whatever reason, that's an emergency and that's when dependents leave kicks in. But that's not the case here.

My DH works long hours and sometimes has to go to functions or late meetings with only a couple of days notice. It's usually fine because I'm at home anyway, but sometimes I do have plans already and was relying on him being home early to look after the DC.

But if something important for his work crops up on an evening I have plans, he doesn't say he can't do it because his wife's off out somewhere, we arrange a babysitter instead.

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TantrumsAndBalloons · 22/07/2014 15:04

Did he actually go into work and day he cannot attend the training because you have plans to attend a baby shower?

And then you phoned ACAS for advice?

Seriously. Take your dd or stay at home.

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PiratePanda · 22/07/2014 19:48

I know this is upsetting you, but this one's a no-brainer: your DH's work commitment massively trumps your social engagement, however hard that is for you to hear.

You CAN take your DD, if you think it would be too disappointing for your DH to go. Or you can ask a friend/relative/babysitter to look after her. Or you can not go, though frankly I think that would be a genuine overreaction.

But this us not a family emergency and your DH has to go to work, end of.

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