Have received a poor reference and have some questions

[Frontier]

This is a response to a request we sent following the conditional appointment of a new teacher. The LA's standard form, which I sent out, is very detailed but most employers nowadays don't fully complete it, giving just the bare details.

However, this response says several times that there are concerns for the emotional well being of this fairly new teacher. That her teaching is Ok (not glowing, almost grudgingly admitting that she can teach) but she will require support etc. I am surprised at anyone putting that kind of detail in a reference but they haven't just mentioned it, they've rather laboured the point, mentioning it in response to several different questions. I've been chasing for weeks for a response and then when it comes it's like this. We thought we'd done all our recruitment for Sept!

It won't be my decision as to how the reference is acted on but I will be asked an opinion.

So,

-Should the reference have been written in those terms?
-If not, what are the implications for the school that sent it? The teacher won't see it unless she asks but she is entitled to ask.
-Why would you send such a reference? It's worded as if it's trying to be all full of concern but it comes across a bit vindictive
-Would you think the "only" issue is the teacher's mental health or would you say there was a personality clash or some other "trouble"?
-If we take her on, what are the implications for us if we have this info but don't act on it?
-Should we act on it in terms of the support offered, or take her as we find her?

Ultimately we'll ask the LA for guidance, but I am interested what others think would motivate someone to write a reference like that?

[JollyGolightly]

I would think that there are genuine concerns for the teacher's emotional well being/mental health.

IME the references to be wary of are the bland ones written with the intention of moving a poor teacher on.

[Frontier]

Oh I agree Jolly, references are largely pointless. All they really do is confirm that people have worked where they say they have but this one has given us extra....

[Hereward1332]

You have to assume that they have some evidence to back the opinion up - perhaps extra support having to be given by senior staff, severe stress. The very fact references are normally bland suggests that they are real concerns here, beyond what is written in the reference. It is basically saying that whoever wrote the reference would not employ her again. Unless the candidate mentioned in her interview that she had been given particularly challenging classes, or that she had worked to resolve differences with other staff, both of which might cause excessive levels of stress, you have to take the reference as a fair, evidence-based assessment

[Mrsrochesterscat]

I would want to request further information, evidence of support required/given etc. I am not sure if this is possible?

If it feels vindictive to you, then that's probably what it is.

I am not sure what you can do. Perhaps change the terms of her offer? Hopefully somebody more helpful will be along.

[SauvignonBlanche]

What are their other references like?

[WastingMyYoungYears]

Can a candidate really ask to see their references?

[FunkyBoldRibena]

I'd pick up the phone to be honest and find out from them why they have written it, and see if I could get to the crux of the issue. If you decide to hire her then you will need to support her if possible. Surely every new teacher will need support anyway. If you think it is vindictive I'd find out what has happened - it might be a nightmare for her there.

[Asleeponasunbeam]

I think it could easily have been written by someone who didn't like the teacher and is being vindictive.

Or there could have been one of many, many scenarios that may have caused a temporary blip in the teacher's emotional state.

Or she could have real difficulties and not be the teacher for you. Or she could have real difficulties and be just what you need - poor mental health does not equate to poor teaching. She might need your best mentor.

She must have had more than one reference. What's the other one like?

[scottishmummy]

Make a call,ask them to elaborate with specific examples

[AgentProvocateur]

A candidate can ask the company that receives the reference for a copy, but not the company sending it. I think it comes under data protection.

I would say that the school is giving you a very strong warning that the teacher is not suitable for the job. They have given you facts, but read between the lines. I'd pick up the phone and have a frank conversation with whoever wrote it.

[Pigglesworth]

I think this could very well be vindictive, especially if that's the feeling you got from the writing style. It could equally be expressing genuine concern. But I have a colleague at the moment on another team in my department, who is an excellent, kind, and hard-working colleague but is also currently the latest in a very long line of people who have been targeted/bullied out of their job (there is a small group of managers who target a person, then that person resigns, then they pick a new person to target - thankfully I am not in any way involved with these managers in my day-to-day work... yet... but am job-hunting for fear of eventually becoming a target. Complaints have been repeatedly raised, but nothing has been done). Anyway, my lovely colleague has resigned though is still job-hunting, but overheard a phone conversation involving one of these managers regarding how she planned to add to my colleague's reference, and it seemed she was saying this in a negative way. So if the tone of the reference was bitchy, it could have been written by a bitchy person.

The best approach, I feel, would be to contact the person who wrote the reference directly and ask them to elaborate. I would also inform the candidate of the concerns raised and give them the chance to address these. I think it's nasty of someone to agree to be a referee, then slyly provide a poor reference.

[Lunastarfish]

An employer is only suppose to provide a true and accurate reference so for the School's sake I hope they have some evidence backing it up! If you declined to give the candidate a job because of the referenced she'd be enitled to request a copy of the reference off you under the DataProtection Act and in theory could sue the school for negligent mistatement if the reference cannot be backed up.

I would therefore assume the reference is accurate, however, I have come across some shoddy employers in my time and know employers give bad references thinking they are being clever when really they are completely dropping themselves in it and will get bitten on their arse!

[ariana1]

A newly qualified friend of mine travelled up and down the country attending interviews but failing to be appointed. After one such interview she was taken aside and told that the reference from the headteacher at one of her training placements was so bad that despite an impressive interview they could not appoint her. He had made reference to her inappropriate friendship with a fellow young teacher and assumptions about her attitude despite her passing her assessments in the classroom.
This was 25 years ago and there was a shortage of teachers in London so she went to a school there in the end but I believe she contacted the School of Ed where she'd trained for advice. Once she was successfully in post she didn't need to use that reference again. She has moved around and is now in senior management; I believe that you should follow up directly and then let the candidate have a chance to respond before the appointment is cancelled - they may agree to a temporary position initially as they won't have time to find another job now.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

I would speak to the candidate. I had this with someone I wanted to employ - the reference from her previous employer was resoundingly negative. I called the employer, and asked if she would give more information over the phone. She refused. I followed up the other references, and they were fine (glowing, even!). I then spoke to the candidate, and said, I wanted to offer her the job, but there was this problem with her previous employer. She said she had taken the employer to court for sex discrimination, and won. She provided me with all the evidence, we employed her, and she was great! It was just vindictiveness on the part of the previous employer.

[finefatmama]

Should the reference have been written in those terms? If its factual and accurate

Why would you send such a reference? if it was factual and accurate and so serious that it was feared felt that there would be some liability to the school for misrepresenting although the unions generally fight for non-detrimental references which is what we aim for. Also some schools think that if they hint at a disability, you will have to take the person off their hands otherwise you could be challenged for discriminating (you now have an obligation to support as it has been flagged up and can't come back and say you didn't know).
some schools ask for a post offer reference at which point they may be more forthcoming with details of support. And schools have been blamed in serious case reviews for not flagging things up and allowing unsafe teachers to move on. I am not suggesting that this is the case here.

If we take her on, what are the implications for us if we have this info but don't act on it?

The new Keeping Children safe in education statutory guidelines which requires you to
"verify the candidate’s mental and physical fitness to carry out their work responsibilities. A job applicant can be asked relevant questions about disability and health in order to establish whether they have the physical and mental capacity for the specific role". It then refers to the equality act as reference. It could be vindictive and we have seen those as well and often requested another referee from the school to get our second satisfactory reference. Now it has been flagged up, it's a good idea to satisfy yourself as to which one it is.



I can think of 2 instances where a conversation may have been a good idea between head teachers and a red flag in the reference. One was a teacher suffering from schizophrenia at a previous place and the OH report referred to the fitness to teach guidelines and said that it was highly unlikely that a person with that condition would be fit to teach. When she was in the classroom,she coped ok and that was for a maximum of 1 week per academic year. She eventually resigned and left education as she was very unhappy in the classroom. She had slit her wrists in school. For it would have been a 'would not re-employ' if you had such an option on the form.

another at a different school was a really lovely oxbridge graduate first class honours degree science teacher who taught well as long as she wasn't challenged by the kids in class or by parents during parents evening, wasn't growled at by another grumpy member of staff having a bad day, didn't have to mark handwritten work and give formative feedback every week for all her sets, didn't have to read up information and was slowly verbally briefed instead, didn't have to tidy up a classroom that was messed up the teacher sharing it and didn't have problems starting up any of the equipment on the day. I'm sure it's not the same person however the support required was quite a bit and I had to brief her every morning and debrief her every afternoon to make sure she was ok. HoD spent a good chunk of time preparing her resources as we initially logged an average of 10 hours per week of time she spent upset and crying over such issues. got it down to 2 hours before she left which was a massive improvement. If she had to move to a school like one of the previous ones I worked in which was 70% behaviour management and regarded as a sink school, she would not have coped as week as she would have done if she wanted to move to a grammar school.

It's worth asking for details of the behaviours needing support and the type of support you need to put in place. Presumably the offer has probation which is dependent on satisfactory references, fitness to undertake the role and satisfactory or good performance anyway.

[finefatmama]

also second teacher may need to have a reduced teaching load compared to their peers which may be better supported and absorbed in a large school or federation compared to a small village primary so flagging up support might be a good idea to allow for the school to determine the fit and sort out resources. It'll all come out during probation.