Levels required for selective private/grammar

[DialsMavis]

Hi, I am just pondering really...
What sort of national curriculum levels would be expected in a year 5 child (attends bog standard state school & has never been tutored) if they had any hope of passing 11+/ common entrance exams. I am in London if that matters.
Thanks in Advance

[GrimmaTheNome]

DDs state grammar ('normally' rather than 'super' selective) gave level 5 at the end of year 5 as a guideline. The metric used by her primary school to guide parents when thinking about schools was CAT scores - these are perhaps more indicative of 11+ potential.

You should ask the schools you're considering - they're usually happy to provide this sort of information.

[DialsMavis]

Thank you Matilda (which is my DDs name BTW), I realise I was being a little vague. I just wanted to check I don't look like a twat at parents evening if I ask what options are open to us. We are miles from a grammar school unfortunately or we would definitely give that a go. DS is bright I think, but not exceptional. He is a 5 b/a for maths, a 6 for reading and comprehension, a 5 for science (not sure of sub level) and a 4c/5a for literacy- his teacher says he should be a firm 5 but makes a couple of silly mistakes that mean she can't quite move him up.

So it seems with some extra work he could be up to standard if we could hypothetically find fees (which is highly unlikely). I assume that bursaries and scholarships are only for the little geniuses?

[DialsMavis]

Some people locally send their DC to grammar miles away, but I think DS would be very unhappy about that. I have always been fairly relaxed about his schooling, but have recently noticed how working hard is no longer cool among the boys and I don't want that attitude to affect DS.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I assume that bursaries and scholarships are only for the little geniuses?
Bursaries are means-tested; scholarships vary between schools and are usually only a percentage.

Those are jolly good levels for yr5 - you certainly wouldn't look daft to ask about selective options. Though whether parent's evening at a state school is the right approach I'm not sure. You probably need to suss out schools yourself - find out when the open days/evenings are, arrange to visit them.

[DialsMavis]

Thanks Grimma, I will know more after parents eve. The levels I stated come from
DS, though I am inclined to believe him as he would like to sit with his mates at a different table, rather than with the 'bossy boring girls' so I don't think he would lie.

[OhDearConfused]

Those levels are way above what my DS is even predicted for at end of Year 5 (except Maths!) (and he just passed a 10+ test for selective indie in London). In fact, they are excellent for half way through Y5.

So either he has got it wrong (DS telling tales, never!) or you have nothing to worry about at all....

[DialsMavis]

He had exceptionally good year 2 SATs then he didn't really seem to move on for a year or 2, so i think he has had another surge! They are in broadly in line with what I was told at his last parents evening, except reading and comprehension which she didn't mention, she just said he is an excellent reader but his comprehension was not always demonstrable as the same level. His hand writing is fairly messy when he isn't concentrating or is hurrying, but apparently that is a boy thing. I will update tomorrow, possibly a bit if he has wildly exaggerated!

[OhDearConfused]

The London indies (and grammars) I have looked at say that there is no need to look beyond NC. (Of course, with the exception of NVR/VR.)

[OhDearConfused]

Levels are also subjective of course, one school (or teacher) saying 4c for English might be a 5a elsewhere (or different class), and so on....

[seeker]

Oh, honestly. This is ridiculous!

dialsMavis- those are very, very good levels indeed for barely into year 5. Very few children get level 6s even at the end of year 6. I suggest you google NC levels before you go to parents evening.

[seeker]

And no, levels are not subjective. There are very strict benchmarks for each level. A level 4c is a level 4c. You can look up the criteria if you like.

[DialsMavis]

Seeker: I know his levels are good, although they do seem to have jumped up again after coasting for some time. But I had no idea what is expected at selective schools as I have no experience of these at all. I think him attending one would be pie in the sky for us anyway, but I wanted to get an idea of what is expected and how bright bright is when you step outside an average state primary. I am categorically NOT one of THOSE parents, so don't discuss levels with his friends parents. There has been no mention of G&T or him being exceptional in anyway at this school (he has been there 1.5 years).

[DialsMavis]

When I have previously asked why his levels hadn't changed very much for a while, his current school said that his previous one probably over egged his yr2 marks.

[OhDearConfused]

Yes of course 4c is 4c. My point was only that someone has to make an assessment (there is no external control) as to whether that level has been attained and in the borderline it is perfectly possible for one teacher to make an assessment one way rather than the other.

[OhDearConfused]

Or indeed, overegging as I said a subjective assessment !

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

My older two were getting levels ranging from 4a to 5b at the end of Y5, depending on which subject. Hope that helps.

DS1 scored in the top 5% of the cohort at 11+.
DS2 scored in the top 1%.

DS1 is now at an academic secondary school. He reckons he ranks about a quarter of the way down the year. DS2 hasn't started there yet.

[OhDearConfused]

Sounds like the sort of levels which my DS is predicted, ThreeBee. Agree that seems enough for the London selective indies.

[loveyouradvice]

Truly stunning for early y5.... We've just done all the 11+ for DD - got interviews with all 7 indes applied to and guidance for end of year 5 getting in was high 4's/5s getting in depending on school - City unequivocal that 5s at end of year 5 good indicator will be offered a place.

That said, depending on where you are in London our grammars are VERY selective - and often dependent on VRNVR and look for higher levels than the index.

I'd not discount getting full bursary to inde if your income suggests you might... they vary hugely - some say need to be in top 100 results (of typically 500-600 applying, 200-300 getting interviewed) to get bursary as IT IS NOT a scholarship just for those who would benefit from education like this. Scholarships - yup, again depends on school but few awarded and not much money now - 10 yrs ago, quite a few got non-means tested 50% scholarship - I think now it is more typically 10% of fees.....and I think level 6/7 is norm but not sure... Schools will tell you!

ps DD levels now - 6 for Maths, 5B for Comprehension and unclear for literacy, probably 5C.

pps levels are a guide only - two friends DC working towards level 6 on both english and maths didnt get all their interviews ... think a lot down to exam technique and nerves, luck etc - they are only 10!!

[DialsMavis]

After reading replies and googling I am now questioning the levels I said earlier. I think perhaps he meant some of his work/tests are at the levels he said but not all of it, so he is not on those levels yet. That would make more sense wouldn't it? Will find out tomorrow anyway!

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

OP: the levels you quoted sound feasible for a very high-achieving child, so might be correct. The only one I would question is 4c/5a, as there are 5 sub levels between 4c and 5a. Perhaps he meant 4a/5c?

[DialsMavis]

That's me getting muddled!

[thesnootyfox]

Most of the children I know at Grammar finished year 6 with 5c/5b.