11+

[GracieW]

How much time does your Year 5 DC spend working for this (either tutoring or homework)?

Just want to get an idea of the time commitment...

TIA

[CouthyMow]

I do 10 min Bond exercises with him EVERY day. At weekends he works o longer tasks, a Maths one one day, a Literacy one the next.

I will be doing more intensive work over the summer holidays, especially as he is at his dad's for 3 weeks of the Hols, and in our area, until the Government changed it, we weren't expecting to have him sit the test till November, it's the third week of September now!

No formal tutoring, as we can't afford it. Will be buying the past papers pack from CSSE when registration for the 11+ opens on 2nd July, to be worked on over the summer holidays.

[kilmuir]

Whats CSSE?

[blametheparents]

During year 5 DS did about 1.5 - 2 hours work a week for the 11 plus

During the summer holidays he did 1 hour 5 days a week with 2 days off each week.

He passed.
not sure if that helps!

[GracieW]

Thanks all - DS is currently doing an hour's paper every week but I don't think it's enough and looking at your answers it isn't!!

[KitKatGirl1]

Surely it depends on what kind of pass mark he needs. Is it a 'super' selective/one where the places are only allocated to those with the best 120/150/180 (however many places) marks, or one with a straight pass/fail mark and places then allocated on distance etc? If the latter then I think you should only be doing an hour or so a week for a few months (grammar schools in our area - pass mark of about 86% combined required - say that children should do no more than 6/8 practice papers in total) otherwise I/they would say that they are not really 'grammar school material'. Obviously if the competition is for the best pass mark possible, then that is a different story!

[mumzy]

I know someone who did 4 hours each week for 2 years then 5 hours a day throughout the summer holidays of year five. He got into Tiffin!

[mumzy]

Just reread your post i think he had 1hr week tutoring and 3 hours practise.

[WoodRose]

My neighbour is a piano teacher and a number of her pupils are being tutored for North London super selectives and independent London day schools. They have on average 2 hours per day of diy and professional tutoring as well as spending 4 hours every Saturday at a tutoring centre. These children would have started their preparation in the spring of year 4 at the latest.

[Hardboiled]

Sorry but these are horror stories. 5 hours a day during the hols? Four hours in a saturday school for two and a half years? Do these children do other things, like playing, reading, music, climbing trees or

[WoodRose]

Hardboiled Agree, it is hideous.

DS is very keen to go to City Boys for secondary school but I really don't rate his chances when the competition is being prepared to such an extreme extent. I have told him that it is fine with me if he wants to put in that amount of work, but I certainly won't be making him do it! Needless to say, DS decided that 2 hours of extra work per day after school wasn't really for him.

[CouthyMow]

CSSE are the consortium of Grammar schools in Essex.

[CouthyMow]

Yes, DS1 does lots of other things, like footy training, playing his computer games, reading, playing out the back and having water fights etc, but the only Grammar local to us is a super-selective. They only take the top 90 boys...in the COUNTY.

[CouthyMow]

We started prep at the start of Y3...

[abc73]

DS1 did a Bond minute test every morning in term time, and about half an hour a day during the summer holidays (not weekends or our week away). He passed the Kent Test with 140 (maximum standardised score) in each paper.

[Greythorne]

This is.... An eye opener!

Out of interest, are your children naturally motivated to do 1, 2 hours work at the weekend or do you gave to find ways to motivate them, and if so, what do you do?

[CouthyMow]

I used to trade 30 minutes decent prep work for 30 minutes computer time...now he is at the end of Y5 and can see the exam date creeping up on him, he is self motivated. He does extra exercises that he brings home from school too, he asked the HT for them.

He is hopeful of getting a place, he is teacher assessed as a 5a in Literacy and 6b in Maths at the end of Y5. It would be brilliant for him, seeing as I am a Lone Parent on benefits, and he is on FSM's.

[mumzy]

The real competition is for the superselective state grammars in and around London: Tiffin, St Olaves, HB, QE, etc and a poster on another thread puts it brilliantly hence why dc put in so much work

"if you consider over 1500 pupils take the Tiffins test (all of whom will be a level 5 minimum or most likely a level 6 SATS in all subjects) you can see this isn't a test to see who is clever enough and who isn't.

It is a test that takes 1500 kids (of whom at least 1000 will be exceptionally gifted and easily clever enough to excel at Grammar school) and whittles them down to the last 150 men standing.

There are children who take the test who achieve level 6 in all their SATS who don't get a place. With 10 - 12 applicants per place, getting just one question wrong or being a fraction too slow is the difference between getting a place and not getting one. This is where tutoring comes in - speed and accuracy as well as short cuts and familiarity might gain you 3 extra marks on your paper and that makes all the difference.

Once upon a time (and still today in some areas) the 11+ sorted children who were clever and would benefit from a grammar school education from those who would not be suited to it.

Nowadays most people do not take the 11+ exams and the test just acts to assess which of the 1000+ exceptionally bright children who apply should be chosen"

[mumzy]

I don't want to put anyone off but there is insane coaching that goes on for these superselectives and I'll bet most dc who get a place would have had it.

[mumzy]

woodrose just to say that also know a lad who got into city boys and their exam is nothing like Tiffins. City wants dc who are very solid academically ( think level 6 in yr 6 for maths and english) with a spark about them. However they may demand more if you're after a scholarship or bursary.

[GracieW]

Good Lord. at some of the hours being put in. DS would be !!

Luckily we are in an area where there is just a pass or fail - no super selectives here.

DS can do the test but not within the time allowed. Have got some Bond tests but will have a look at the minute tests too.

Only 3 1/2 months of this madness to go

[letseatgrandma]

We're going a maths paper, a VR paper and an English paper each week-exam is in September.

[GracieW]

Are you timing them or just getting your DC accustomed to doing them?

[letseatgrandma]

Mostly not timed, but I have timed the odd one, or odd sections to get him to speed up a bit! He did a timed paper at school and completed it within the time with a good score so I have eased up a bit on timing, as he's proved he can pull it out of the bag if he needs to!

I think the hardest bit will be doing the three papers one after another on the morning-keeping that pace and stamina up is going to be rather challenging :(

[WoodRose]

mumzy Thanks! That is encouraging news. DS, at the end of year 5, is working at level 5 in maths and literacy so hopefully will be in the running. He is young for his year, however, and lacks the maturity and diligence of some of his older classmates. Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[RedVW]

I have 2 children at state grammar in Birmingham where 4,500 take exams for 600 places at 5 grammar schools. Many of the 15,000 children in Birmingham who move to secondary each year opt out of taking test and quite a few from surrounding counties take Foundation exam. There is no catchment area so I suppose these schools are classed as super selectives.

Don't believe everything you hear about the amount of tutoring (paid for and DIY) that children do. I think some people like to exaggerate to show their children in a good light, that they should be in such a school because they like studying. I also believe it is what the parents want for their children rather than what the children want in some cases.

If your child is near or at the top of the year, enjoys learning and will succeed in an environment where children want to learn, move along at a good pace, happy to do nightly homework, then preparing them for the 11+ is an option. it isn't just about passing a one-off exam, it is about 7 years of their lives in such an environment.

Some areas of the country have grammars that take the top 25% whilst others take the top 5%. The amount and type of preparation depends on your child, what you and your child want over the next several years, the school(s) you are applying for, the county it is in and the competition for places. Although some of the members of the forum are quite intense, I would suggest you view www.elvenplusexams.co.uk for more information about the schools you might want to apply for, have a chat with your child and visit the schools to see for yourself and to motivate your child.

Although SAT levels are an indicator of the ability of your child, the 11+ is very different and tests potential rather than what children have learnt and remembered. I know of supposed level 6 children who didn't get into grammar schools and some level 4s who have. One doesn't know how your child will perform on the day - the elevenplus website forum is littered with examples of very bright children whose parents have been through a very traumatic appeal process to demonstrate their child's level of ability, because they didn't perform to the level expected of them on the 11+ exam day.

Please do your research and if it is something you and your child want to attempt, then put in place a realistic plan to prepare for it, including allowing plenty of time (9 months to a year at the most), understanding what your child should know, practice papers, a mock exam to get them used to exam conditions, time away from studying, paperwork to be completed for the school and the county authority and the timescales associated with this. If it takes several hours of extra study each week, perhaps it is not for your child. Many children who don't get into grammars as they didn't score highly enough or didn't take the 11+ do very well.

I hope this is useful and good luck.