Phonetic alphabet - how does it help?

[tex111]

DS is starting a new preschool and they've asked that when we work with him at home we should use the phonetic alphabet only and not the actual names of the letters. They've also asked that we do only lower-case letters. I'm going to ask the school about this but from talking to a few friends it seems to be one of those US/British differences.

In my experience in the US children are taught the names of letters with their sounds at the same time. We also learned upper and lower case together. This makes more sense to me as it will all need to be learned at some point, but maybe that's just because doing it all at once is an approach to which I'm accustomed. What are the benefits of learning only the phonetic alphabet and lower case letters in the beginning? Is there a book that could help me to understand this approach? I'm happy for DS to learn this way and will follow the school's guidelines at home but would like to understand it all a bit better.

[aloha]

It's simply using letters as the children will encounter them when they start to learn to read - by sound and as most print is lower case, as lower case. Knowing the names of the letters doesn't help at all when it comes to reading.

[QueenOfQuotes]

well they're going to have fun with DS1 when he starts school tomorrow - he's 'drawing' at the moment, and drawing upper case letters all over his picture

he can 'read' his name and a few other words (ie tesco, boots, halifax lol) in lower case, but draws upper case ATM

[Creole]

Why don't you try the jolly phonetic range, they are really good and most schools use them now. I don't know how old your child is, but the dvd is particularly helpful.

[Creole]

sorry, meant to day, Jolly phonics.

[tex111]

Thanks Creole, I've just looked into Jolly Phonics online and it looks like it would actually be very useful for me! And probably DS too.

I just need to understand the approach a bit better. It seems like it would be more confusing to, for example, call letters 'c' and 'k' by the same sound rather than learning that they have different names but make the same sound. Could it impact the ability to spell later if it's only the sounds that are established first?

I'm sure it's a very valid approach. I just need to educate myself. I'm not even sure what all the sounds for the phonetic alphabet are! Does it cover both sounds when a letter such a 'y' can have two different sounds?

DS is 3, so this will be his foundation for reading, spelling, writing, etc and I want to be sure and get it right at home without confusing him.

[Creole]

Jolly phonics have a teacher/parent book that will answer all of your questions. chechout their website at www.jollyphonics.co.uk

I believe in the jolly phonics dvd, it refers to 'C' as the curly caa and 'K' as the kicking caa to distinguish the two.

[Catflap]

Hi tex - it is really tricky for adults, who have been reading and writing for years without giving it a second thought, to try and work out how all this letter and sound business works! It is actually quite complicated business and to us who, again, have been doing it automatically for years, it can seem amazing how kids learn it at all.

Firstly, learning sounds AND names, lower AND upper case can be managed quite well by many children but is a lot of information and can take a long time, or by those who struggle, is too mcuh information and they never do learn it all properly.

Lower case is the type that children will encounter most of - indeed, we all do - in books, newspapers, in these messages! Of course capitals are encountered; at the beginnings of names, but they are learnt as they are encountered and at a slower rate.

Sounds are the things are best learnt rather than letter names, as this is how our written language is created. Writing is just a representation of what we say - the words that come out of our mouths. Everything we say is just a bunch of sounds joined up. Some words are just one sound - I, a, oh, etc. Some are two sounds stuck together - an, off, out, it etc. Some are three sounds - cat, sun, when, hop, joke etc. I appreciate this is hard to comprehend when you are reading the letters rather than hear me say the sounds and words, for example, 'joke' might look odd as a 3 sound word the way it is spelled but when you say it, you say 3 sounds: j - oa - k.

Our written language was constructed to represent these sounds. But there are over 40 different sounds in our spoken words and we only have 26 letters to represent them. So some letters have to be used twice and more often than not, be stuck with other letters for one sound.

So, the letter 'a' can be used for the sound in the middle of cat and fan, and also for the sound at the beginning of also and always, and also put with i for ai like in rain, and with an o for oa as in goat etc etc

By learning all these sounds and all the letters that represent them, children see a word and recognise those letters or groups of letters; know what sounds to say and how to blend them to hear the word again.

Learning the letter names does not help with this. It only gives us something to call the letters by but doesn't help with reading or spelling in its early stages.

However, there is a need to call the letters something and people know they represent sounds, so decades ago, and I don't know when or certainly why, but someone gave the letters the sound most commonly associated with it and the letters were almost referred to that as if it were its second name - e.g. 'S' (ess) became 'a suh' and so the a, buh, cuh, duh, e, fuh, guh' etc was born. This, however, is terribly misleading and is not even pronounced correctly, so many children do not learn to read via 'phonics' if it means learning the 26 letters by that one distorted sound.

Schemes like Jolly Phonics make phonics more thorough and systematic. They simplify a complicated business. They also make it fun and multisensory. All these things make it the most successful way to teach children to read.

Children are also taught to read via other strategies, such as using the pictures to give clues as well as reading ahead and making a sensible guess as to what the word might be from the sense of the story. However, these were largely developed from the phonics being so ineffective in the past and children needing more help than just the 26 letters and their 'sounds.' With all the correct knowledge and taught effectively, such guesswork strategies are redundant.

The Jolly Phonics handbook and site explain a lot about it and they also have a messageboard where you can ask more questions. There are also other sites around that explain this reading philosophy such as the Reading Reform Foundation who also have links to other sites.

Many schools have been teaching reading like this and have been achieving outstanding results. It looks likely that it will be introduced into the National Curriculum sometime in the not so distant future. Even where it is not taught now, it is now commonly believed that phonics needs to be taught more rigourously and effectively than traditionally done.

I hope this gives you some help - please feel free to ask questions if you like. There is a fab book that explains it all - Diane McGuinness's 'Why Children Can't Read' - but it is a very intense read! I summarised it in a document for colleagues when I was working as I knew they would be interested in the contents but unable to plough through it all! if you are happy to leave your e-mail address, I can send it to you; or message me here and I'll give you mine.

Hope this helps.

[tex111]

Catflap, thank you so much for that information. After speaking to DS's teacher yesterday it sounds like they are approaching phonics in the basic 'a, buh, cuh' way that you described. I do feel that if DS is going to learn this way it would be better to learn the complete proper technique and I think it will be my responsibility to do that. At least until he starts primary school in a couple of years.

I'll check out the link you suggested and I would love a copy of the summary you mentioned. My email is [email protected].

One thing that has crossed my mind is my own accent. I'm Texan and, though my accent isn't terribly strong anymore, it's definitely present in certain vowel sounds. I don't mind DS having a mixed accent but I don't want to confuse or complicate his learning of phonics. The thing I keep going back to is that I'm definitely going to have to educate myself about all this before I can help him very much.

Thanks so much for your help!

[Monstersmum]

Thanks so much for that Catflap. DS (4) started Reception and I was wondering about the whole phonics thing - no such thing when I was in school! Will check it out in more detail.

He is being sent home books without words to DH's dismay. Must admit I am struggling to get him interested. I know this is to encourage discussion etc etc but we have been doing this for years! Meeting wiht teacher next week for advice on how best to help with reading.

[robinia]

Hopefully it's just a case of your ds learing the simple ones first and then moving on to the more complicated ones. iirc my ds learnt probably 80% of the alphabet before moving on to the more complicated ones (double letters etc.) and then filling in with the less important single letters.

[Catflap]

in response to robinia's comment; sounds represented by two letters such as 'ee' and 'sh' are often perceived as being more tricky just because there are more letters and by dealing exclusively with single letters first, it almost reinforces to children that this is how it works in its easiest form and then we'll move on the 'tricky' ones and this progression in itself makes it tricky, when in fact, following a scheme such as Jolly Phonics, some double letter sounds are done before all teh single ones are introduced. I always make sure the kids know all teh 40+ sounds, and then they know there are only 26 letters and they know from the outset that each sound can have one or more letters and then they learn to just recognise that sound picture regardless of how many letters it has. (I hope that makes sense...!)

monstersmum - you describe typical practice that can be really frustrating for many children. How about you make up words for him to read, words that he can sound out himself. With the right phonic knowledge (i'm only saying that as I don't know how much he has and he can have acquired it by any number of means if he is able and keen enough) you can make more adventurous words than just 'cat sat on the mat' types. Following JP letter introduction, 'mushroom' and 'woodpecker' are easily decodable basic words!

Picture books don't really teach reading at all - pictures don't teach reading. Learning letters and sounds teaches reading and some people advocate that early reading books have no pictures as they are only distracting. Indeed, I have had many kids loving reading phrase and sentence strips that were pictureless. I'm not saying children should never experience pictures at all - there are so many beautifully illustrated books out there to enjoy and love and should not be denied - but they are not needed to teach reading.

monstersmum - take the advice from your ds's teacher carefully. Many teachers aren't aware of the most effective ways of teaching children to read and can promote confusing, delaying strategies. I'm not saying teachers cannot teach children to read, as of course this has been happening for the majority of children for decades, but it is can often be slower than necessary and more chaotic than necessary, leaving able children to learn in spite of the teaching and less able to struggle for always.

tex - the article is 'in the post!' It is the differing vowel sounds that make our accents and many people with UK accents think that the differing regional accents can make phonics teaching difficult. This is not the case at all - it just might need to be adapted. If you use Jolly Phonics (which I only keep mentioning because it's the one I used as I love the picture references, but there are other similar schemes avaialble) then the pictures will help. The sound for 'ou' (as in 'sound') is represented by a needle and thread and you say the sound you would say if you were pricked by the needle. The child can say that themselves - and then you get it in their accent! That works for most of the sounds.

Yes, you do need to be very well informed to teach this effectively and that is the major implication for it being adopted in the educational establishment - training. I taught myself - but it has been taking ages and if someone had just taught me properly in the first place, well, I can still picture all the kids for whom Iwould have done a better job....

However, the JP handbook will be a good start for you, as will the article. Good luck!

[bobbybob]

My ds has the little phonics radio, and they say "the letter b, said buh" so he will point to a letter in a book and say - that's the letter "b, said 'buh' and it's for "Bob".

I did try calling it "buh" but he gave me a "don't be stupid" look and said, "no it's a BEEEEEEEEEEEE mummy - it's just said buh"

He's also said "My name is Bob with one capital B and one normal b and an o too"

[Catflap]

bobbybob - it's great how children can take so much on board from what they hear and memorise, isn't it? And they seem to LOVE teaching and correcting adults! Your ds clearly has a really good memory for such things.

(and now the serious bit!) the only problem I have with such toys (and my family already know not to buy anything reading/phonics/alphabet related without my approval....!!) is that they can reinforce incorrect or inaccurate or confusing information. I have a problem with children being led to believe that letters 'say sounds.' They don't at all - firstly, to be pedantic, they show us what sounds to say, but more importantly, no one letter is for only one sound. So, if a child knows that 'B' says 'buh' what happens when they see the words comb and lamb? If they know that 'C' says 'cuh' what happens when they see the words rich and race? etc

It might seem miserable picking holes in such toys, but it similarly miserable seeing children failing at reading because they have absorbed so much inaccurate information from seemingly harmless sources or those not thought to have such an impact.

[tex111]

Catflap, got the article. Thanks so much. It's actually quite exciting to be learning something new. It's been a while!

[bobbybob]

Catflap - but the radio and the Maisie video (to pick a couple that ds has been exposed to recently) show examples of the letter at the start of a word (possible exception seems to be x). I don't think ds has got any further than thinking that "duh" is the start of "daddy" (or Daddy), which it is.

[ghosty]

Catflap ... just wanted to say, THANKYOU for that brilliant explanation ...

In DS' school (in NZ) they teach by phonics and high frequency words and I have to say that I am astounded at the progress that DS has made since he started school in February.

I was told by the school that they prefer children to know very little when they start as they often have to 'un learn' the children who have been taught too much before hand.

What I liked about the way my DS's teacher taught them at the beginning of the year is that she started the weeks with a letter of the week ... say, b ... The letter is on the board on Monday morning with a little picture of something that starts with it. The week's literacy revolves very much around this letter. They learn its sound (and its name) and they do poems, stories, plays, etc all to do with the letter. The reading books that week are linked into the letter too.

I like the way they see phonics as a vital part of the learning to read process but they are not slaves to phonics especially as English is not a phonetic language.

They do a lot of work with high frequency words, especially those that don't sound out phonetically and that has been really useful for DS.

They are learning vowels at the moment and DS told me the other day that an e at the end of a word made the vowel say its name ... and then showed me words like 'take' 'make' 'made' etc in his book. I had been worried initially what he would make of words that didn't work phonetically and the school is doing a really good job IMO.

[aloha]

Ghosty - the bit about the letter saying it's name - that is phonetics! That's completely and absolutely phonetics! And English is a very phonetic language - very, very few words cannot be sounded out phonetically - I think 'eye' is one. YOu just need to know how to do it.

[dinosaur]

tex111 they use a brilliant system called Ruth Miskin Literacy at my DS1's school. I attach a link to the website if you want to look at it. Phonics was all double dutch to me, too! DS1 learned to read fluently in a very short time on this system.

here

[ghosty]

Aloha ... I know you are an English boffin or writer or something ...
BUT explain to me how English is a very phonetic language?
(for example ... explain 'cough' 'through' 'though')
And how would learning just the sounds of letters make a work like 'take' make sense for a 5 year old?
This is one of the reasons I chose never to teach young children and chose instead to teach those who (in theory) could already read and write

[aloha]

Ah, because you don't just teach the individual letters (26 of them) but the individual sounds of the English language, of which there are 44. These sounds are the building blocks of the language and you teach children how those sounds are represented in texts - so you teach s (sss)and h (huh with an outbreath) but you also teach sh (shhh) as a separate phoneme, so children can recognise sh as separate to s and h used separately. Take is phonetic because of what your son learned about phonetics - vowels say their name and not their sound when the word has a magic 'e' at the end. So it's tuh Ay Cuh. It does make sense and my ds who isn't quite four understands roughly about the 'magic e' and that y - normally 'yuh' - stands for an 'eee' sound at the end of words (as in his name and his sisters names). The Jolly Phonics books show you all this quite well. The key to it is to understand that letters and combinations of letters are not the basics of speech, but merely the ways we have chosen to visually represent speech sounds and . Just as the word red is the word we have chosen to represent the colour, iyswim. But all I've done is read a book and get the Jolly Phonics stuff and it really does make sense! Honest.

[Catflap]

bobbybob - sorry, I really didn't mean to sound so negative about your ds's toys especially when he clearly is at a very early stage and he is doing well to have worked out what he has. I appreciate he won't have worked with more complicated words and sounds yet but I do just express caution for later if this is the manner in which he continues to experience 'phonics.'

ghosty - I'm so pleased you liked the explanation. The start to your post made me smile. WHich is even more why I feel like such a complete bitch for what I am about to say... which is basically to trash what your school is doing..... Please take it in the best possible spirit e.g. I have seen how ineffective phonics works and I have seen how effective phonics works and even when teachers think they are doing a good job and it seems to be working, it can still be painfully slow, confusing and inadequate... I mean, your ds is clearly doing great and you are so pleased, which is also great, but I do feel I have to point out a couple of things that concerned me - if not for your ds then some of the others...

I agree with the school in that I preferred children to come to my reception class knowing nothing - it was harder to un-teach all the others that knew loads of phonics crap!

However, I was sad to see 'high frequency words' - they are really so unnecessary when children can decode anything. I had lists of words up e.g. all the words where 'igh' is for the 'ie' sound e.g. sigh, thigh, high, light, night etc but those were to help with spelling and to reinforce sound/letter correspondence for reading.

A letter of the week is so slow - you can't do much with it. Things that it begins with is so limited - words have sounds and letters all the way through - it can be damaging to just look at the first one all the time. By doing up to 6 letters a week, you then have plenty to construct words from, using the known sounds and letters all through the words so in the JP work, after the first week of doing s, a, t, i, p and n, over 30 words can then be read and spelt e.g. sat, pat, tap, pin, snip, snap etc etc

English IS a phonetic language! That is how it was constructed: letters or groups of letters to represent the individual sounds of our spoken words. It's just that it is a complicated phonetic language, in that we have more than one spelling for most sounds, and letters can be used more than once for different sounds, but taught systematically, there are very, very few words that can't be sounded out. And with many 'tricky' words, it is often only part of the word that has a tricky spelling for a sound.

I tell people this - all the while a sound has a spelling that is used in more than one word, it's not irregular, tricky or un-phonetic. I would say the only words that have to be learnt by sight alone as they are too weird, are 'one' and 'eye' because the spellings really don't match the sounds in any sensible way at all.

And I really can't stand the whole 'magic e' thing. I used to use it - I had a great magic hat and would get kids standing up with letter cards and calling out sounds etc - but it just made things more confusing when they encountered words like 'have' 'move' 'where' etc where that rule does not apply. In fact, I'm sure it doesn't apply to more words than it does.

Again, ghosty, I'm really pleased you are pleased, but it does seem that your DS is doing such a great job in spite of the teaching - he clearly is such a clever little soul that he can pull together all he is learning, seeing and experiencing and get it all right. He is very lucky and I'm pleased for him and you. I hope you didn't mind my comments.

just to add to aloha's explanation, it is the sounds that children learn first and match letters to them. They would know 't' and 'k' and when looking at the vowel sound 'ai' they would learn all the spellings. First, is usually 'ai' as in 'rain' 'wait' etc. Then I do a_e and tell the children that in this case, the two letters for the 'ai' sound are not together but you have to spot both of them and say the sound when you see the first one. So, when a child sees 'take' they s 3 sounds - t, ai and k.

celia2, no, I haven't any experience of cued articulation, but I shall look it up. But from what you describe, Im not impressed! 'c' does not say 'cuh' - in so many words! By impressing this on children's minds, it does so much damage for later on and so much extra work has to be done to unconfuse and demuddle! - not with all children, admittedly, but it's never the really able ones I am talking about, although they could learn ever faster and with more secure information this way.

[milosmum]

my DS is 4 and has now just started to read. As he has been taught phonics- i can see it is easier for him to "sound out" the word if he doesnt know what it says.

i was teaching him ABC but the school were doing the phonics, therefore i found it easier to switch to A is the letter, a is the sound- he appeared to understand that

[Catflap]

milosmum - I'm glad you could see it was easier for him to sound out and I'm glad he is doing so well

We all sound out words we don't know, really, so some degree, depending on our ability now as adults which in turn depends on all sorts of things.

Read this:

"The fructificative goosefoot was foveolariously assembled. The frugivorous and frowsy fricatrice, whose epidermis was of a variegated fuchsinophillic consistency, masticated her chenopodiaceous repast morosely."

Now I'm assuming that everyone probably won't be familiar with all of those words! But I bet you read them all. And how did you do it?!

And I was watching Finding Nemo today - dd loves fish! and how did Dori read P.Sherman 42 Wallaby Way Sydney? Great phonic and blending knowledge for a fish! But she really couldn't have done it any other way. Flashcards, guessing from the picture or the meaning of the sentence wouldn't have helped her there....!

[milosmum]

it did surprise me! i could nt see the point but now i listen to him reading and i can see why its done- its really interesting to watch him do it.

He loves reading- we use the Oxford Reading Tree- hes much more advanced than his peers ( PROUD MUM ALERT).....