Do I need to refund this?

[GingerRodgers]

Buyer paid and I posted with courier. Buyer since said that no parcel arrived. I had already added tracking to listing as soon as sent. Sent them details again and she then remembered a card being posted but no parcel.
Got in touch with courier who checked and said left in 'x' place. Buyer states no such place at address.
Have opened a claim with courier. Have messaged buyer everytime I've had any correspondence with courier (even if it's just from me and no response). Have chased courier daily.
Buyer understandably pissed off but now wants a refund and isn't willing to wait for courier to refund me.
Where do I stand? They've not opened a case with eBay but the messages have started to get a bit, impatient shall we say.
Can't really afford to refund them without courier refund first. Just a bit stuck on what to do next.

[GingerRodgers]

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

[Numanoid]

To be honest, if the buyer says they haven't received the parcel, and the courier has confirmed it was left in x place, yet the buyer is adamant it isn't there, you will have to refund them. It is possible the buyer is at it, but there's no way to prove it. :(
You need to refund them straight away, you can't make them wait for your claim to go through as technically it isn't their fault, and they don't have the goods they paid for. Horrible situation for you though. :/

[GingerRodgers]

I thought with eBay as long as you had provided online tracking you were covered? No? Oh god.

[Numanoid]

Unfortunately not. :( I've had 2 parcels go "missing" on recorded delivery. Online tracking showed signed for, I had tracking receipts, numbers, the lot, but buyers denied all knowledge of ever receiving the items. In the end I had to refund, and raise a claim with RM to get my money back.
Tracking means you're covered if you can prove it's been delivered, but only in the sense that you will get your money back via a claim. Ebay is always on the buyer's side too, being a seller in these situations is very unfair at times.

[GingerRodgers]

So basically we're relying on buyers being honest and they can take us up shit creek whenever they like?!

Remin me again of any positives from selling on eBay....

[Numanoid]

Basically, yes. It's hard to think of many! Granted, most buyers are alright, but there are a lot of scammers out there.

You'll find that's the general feeling on here sometimes, that sellers aren't supported by eBay. For example, and when it arrived it wasn't the item I had ordered. I messaged the seller asking for a partial refund (as what I had paid was too expensive for this item, however I was happy to keep it), still happy to pay same P&P. They didn't respond for more than a week of me messaging them asking (politely) for just a couple of quid off. I escalated as I had no other option, eBay issued me a full refund including P&P within minutes! I felt guilty as I hadn't been hinting for ALL my money back, but they are like that when a buyer reports something.

[Numanoid]

Oops, what I meant to write was I bought something, and when it arrived it wasn't the item I ordered... etc.

[mindyourown1]

sorry - but you have been given the wrong information. If your tracking shows delivered then of course you don't refund! You have added the tracking info to the transaction on eBay? I have never, ever heard of eBay forcing a refund when you have online proof of delivery. Numanoid are you saying eBay forced you to refund?

[Numanoid]

I contacted their helpline as the buyer escalated the case. The funds were then frozen in my Paypal account, so I contacted the eBay helpdesk. They said that I needed to refund the buyer, and if I didn't, they would. When I asked what I would do with regard to the money I lost out on, as I had RM proof of delivery, I was told to raise a claim with Royal Mail. The same happened when a buyer claimed the packaging arrived ripped open, with all the items taken out (unlikely).

I know that as a business seller (not on eBay, separate website), I can't legally refuse a refund unless the customer has form for putting claims in. I've had many cases where the parcel has been signed for, and the courier has given detailed info on delivery... still had to refund and raise a claim with the courier though.

"The Distance Selling Regulations say that goods must be delivered within the time frame you agree with the seller.

If no time frame is agreed, the seller has 30 days from the day after they receive your order to deliver your goods."

^ It's that, or a refund. I guess the buyer could be made to wait the 30 days, but they ain't going to be at all happy about it.

[mindyourown1]

you had online proof of delivery but ebay told you to refund the buyer?? I have never heard of that happening before. You were given the wrong info. But empty packaging is a different matter - they did received it but not as described. And ripped packing with no items inside does happen - happened to me last week. So it is perfectly likeley and possible.

[Numanoid]

I had RM signed for proof from Track & Trace, and the corresponding proof of postage receipt. This was when I was younger, think I was about 20 or so, so around 5 years ago. I haven't had a problem since then, so I don't know if things have changed.

I see it from the seller's point of view, of course, but legally they will need a refund sooner or later. In the end, even if the courier says it's been signed for at the address, if your buyer says they're not telling the truth, there's no way to prove it. I know it's easier for a business to refund sooner than a private seller, but you might at least get good reviews for customer service if the buyer isn't kept waiting.

Maybe eBay is a little different, I'm coming at it as adhering to DSR and avoiding customer service-related rants on social media!

[Numanoid]

That said, eBay does operate under distance selling, and negative feedback is damaging.

[mindyourown1]

no things haven't changed - seems ebay gave you duff info. You should never have refunded. And legally if you have proof of delivery a buyer most certainly is not entitled to a refund - why do you think they would be?

[Numanoid]

Because (sorry if I'm like a broken record here) under DSR they haven't received what they paid for.

I've had issues where we've contacted couriers, to say that the parcel has been signed for but the client hasn't got it. They say that tracking shows it has been signed for. Then they look into to it, and find out that the courier left it somewhere and just put "signed for" because it's easier. Royal Mail and some private couriers do it a lot, I've had so many parcels requiring a signature posted through my letterbox, or left in my porch.

Surely even if it says "delivered", but the buyer is adamant they don't have it, you have to refund. They don't have what they bought, the seller won't refund/replace... it's not fair and not legal. Unfortunately you can't prove they don't have the parcel.

[mindyourown1]

you can quote dsr until you are blue in the face but ebay/paypal rules are key on ebay. If you have online proof of delivery ebay will not force a refund.

[Numanoid]

Well, I just think it'll be worse not refunding when the case is taken to small claims. Legally the buyer has every right to a refund so it's better to do it sooner rather than see how far they'll take it. Regardless of eBay's rules, they can't go against the law.

[Numanoid]

Not necessarily regarding the OP's case in particular, just in general with missing parcels.

[Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme]

You might have proof of delivery but you haven't proof of the right delivery. I ordered a rug for the children's playroom, not terribly big or heavy, and when it didn't arrive I rang the company. The nice man said it had been left at my address and could even tell me that it had been carefully tucked inside my greenhouse.

I don't have a greenhouse.

Turned out they'd delivered it to a house with a similar road name in a different county! They could prove it had been delivered but I didn't have it! Luckily they sent me another one. The original one never arrived so presumeably the other recipient kept it.

[GingerRodgers]

I don't have a problem refunding the buyer at all but when I get a refund from the courier. All I've asked is that they wait until I get a refund so I can refund them. I'm not for one second saying I won't ever refund.

[mindyourown1]

how can a buyer take a seller to court when the seller has proof of delivery - that is utterly ridiculous. I give up.

[Numanoid]

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme That seems to happen a lot, I've heard of couriers delivering to, for example, Cherry Lane instead of Cherry Road, because they've just assumed it's the same place!

mindyourown1 Because clearly couriers never ever get it wrong. An electronic proof of delivery must be the be all and end all then. Just as well retailers like Ilovemydog's sender didn't have that attitude. In fact, I'm glad pretty much every other retailer doesn't, based on the amount of parcels that have been signed for by "me", then handed over by my neighbour.

[Numanoid]

GingerRodgers I'm sure it will be fine, I've had a pair of jeans delivered on eBay which were recorded by Royal Mail as being delivered to me. Turned out the postman had been confusing which flat was which (I used to live in a close with 3 flats, and since my landlord's name was on the door it may have confused the postman)! I got a refund from the seller, and I'm sure they would have been reimbursed as it was a mistake on Royal Mail's part.