What is considered a fair split in a divorce?

[bella1968]

I know that it is hard to make a fair assessment on what information that I can provide but I'm waiting for my solicitor to return from holiday and very worried.

My H and I have been together 17 years, 9 of that married. We have 2 children, twins, boy and girl aged 11 who are about to start Secondary school in September. We have had our home since 2003 and have 2 secured loans against the property. Apart from that we have 2 other loans which are in my name but joint debts (he couldn't get the credit due to new job or being out of work at the time). So far my calculations have got me to the point where we would have 97,278 each but that's without taking pensions into consideration and that would be for assets - debts. This means house and cars would have to be sold and a clean break to happen, however then there's the children. However either of our salaries do not provide enough money to get a mortgage to afford a home in the same area which means that we shall have to move if the house is sold and then the children may have to go to another secondary school. Also worth considering is that I am 45, 46 in September and he is just 41 so getting another mortgage will be tough especially with the debts that we have.

My H has filed for the divorce however I was going to do so anyway, I am only contesting his reasons and shall clearly make mine as to his domestic abuse to the children and myself when I return the acknowledgement slip which I shall sign so that the judge can be aware of this. I shall also be ticking the 'willing to go to mediation' box although I'm aware that we have to have 1 meeting in order for a judge to even consider giving an order (should that be the route we take).

I would prefer to avoid the courts however at this stage I'm not sure whether my h will play ball in reaching the best agreement for the children as he wants me out of the house (which we jointly own/mortgaged) and him in it. I also think that as the 2 loans are in my name although created for a joint reason he will want me to pay them unless we go to court and then I understand that the judge can take this into consideration?

Another question is should I get to remain in the house with the children and we have shared residence, who pays for the children's uniform, clothes, school trips, pocket money, clubs, phones, travel etc?

[Bellabutterfly2014]

Hi Bella, another Bella here! I've just read your thread, and thought of something that May or may not be useful.

I work as a personal assistant and did a placement at a solicitors and worked for a lady specialising in family Law and I remember a case involving credit cards, loans and them all being in one parties name. The client was asked what the loans and credit cards were used for and was asked to get full itemised statements. 1 of the loans was to consolidate other debt like store cards and credit cards ran up by one person some prior to them living together and they were advised to contact the bank and get all copies of original paperwork. This resulted in the person who ran up the debt being responsible for paying it out of their settlement.

As I Said I no legal expert, I am a pa but just thought I would share that with you. Try not to worry whole your solicitor is on holiday - I know it it's be a worrying time, you could always try citizens advice to see if they come up with any good advice in the meantime x

[millymollymoomoo]

I think you dont just need to look at assets and debts, but also earnings and pensions. Do you both work full time? Does one earn significantly more, has either sacrificed earnings to care for children etc. If so this needs to be given some consideration.
What is happening with the children? Their needs take priority so will one parent be resident and therefore need bigger property. All these make a difference. Fair does not necessarily mean equal or the same. Can either afford to buy the other out now and still house yourself?

[bella1968]

hi bella thanks for your reply the one loan is easy to attribute to being ours as it's for a club la costs timeshare and that is held in both our names however the loan for it is in my name only so that shouldn't be a problem and is the largest loan. The other loan is around 12,000 and is a consolidation of debts, I shall have to have a look through some statements if I can find them to see when it was transferred, maybe I can contact the bank and they will know where they transferred the money from the loan to anyway but I may need to follow the audit trail on that one. Thanks for the advice.

milly thanks for your reply, earnings are around the same with him earning 4,200 higher than me p.a. but that includes a 5,400 p.a. car allowance which I do not know whether is taken into consideration. On the pensions front I think this will take quite a bit of time to obtain the information. We both work full-time but up until 2 months ago he was unemployed for 8 months, his solicitor referred this to the judge as being the sole carer but we had not decided this it was simply forced upon us as his contract had come to an end and he hadn't found work yet. I sacrificed my earnings for the first 3 years of the children's lives to look after them and was forced to go back to work then because we couldn't make ends meet on his salary. I plan for the children to remain with me in the family home, however that is plan for him to be there without me also.

I had an estate agent round last night to value the property, it has risen quite alot since around September 2013 time which was amazing. However she confirmed my thoughts that we would not be able to afford a property with the remaining money and also a mortgage on our own in the area which would mean the children would have to go to another school which is not advisable due to the fact that they are going to secondary school in September.

I would like it if we could have a clean break and him to sign the house over to me that way he could get a mortgage on his own rather than waiting another 7 years until the children are 18.

What I'm now thinking/worrying about is that I was going to file for divorce and then he did before me, will he file a financial order and just bypass the mediation system? then levy the costs onto me, if he does will I have the opportunity to argue this and will I then have to put my own in? is it better that I put one in first or does this not matter?

thanks.

[EarthWindFire]

It is unlikely that he would be advised to just sign over the house. There is 90K plus equity each at the moment is that correct?

[bella1968]

apart from the pensions, assets - liabilities leaves approx 85,000 each but that would mean selling cars and house, however we would not get a mortgage for a property in the area in which we currently live which might mean the children would have to move schools.

I have ready a great deal of information on how this goes but still each case is different on how it is split.

If he kept his pension and I paid off the debts then financially a judge might order him to transfer the property over to me?

[millymollymoomoo]

Depends how much his pension is worth vs yours. I understand you are aiming for s clean break but it might not be possible in reality. You certainly might be able to use pension as a bargaining tool and negotiate a highershare of house to drop this.....depends what values are there. Also bear in mind that if you keep all the capital he might not be able to raise deposit for a mortgage.

Have you been advised by a solicitor at all?

[Bellabutterfly2014]

Hi Bella, one thing you could do is invest it settlement money into an investment property wherever you choose and then rent somewhere within the catchment area for the school. This would be less disruptive for them and could offer you a solution for the time being x

[WellWhoKnew]

Bella, wait for your solicitor to come back from holiday - the numbers you are dealing with, your ages, your children's ages and the complexity of your situation means it is worth spending a few hundred pounds getting that advice, rather than risking losing thousands (and your home possibly) trying to do a "fair" 50/50 split in his/her absence.

There is no hurry to do this at all. So don't work yourself into anxiety. No one can predict what a judge will do - they have wide ranging powers of decision making. They don't act on moods but on all the facts of the case, which are unique to your marriage. You aren't even going in front of a judge yet - you're still negotiating with your STBX to try to determine outcomes. If that fails, then you'll got to mediation. Then if that fails you'll go before a judge (but even before that your solicitors will sit down together and see if anything can be agreed), then you'll go away for some thinking time, more information gathering, more negotiations before going to a judge again.

The onus is on you and your STBXH to negotiate the settlement, not the judge.

Who is going to bring up the children? The children's needs come 1st, 2nd and 3rd until they are finished with education. This needs to be decided before housing and separating finances can be discussed. Who pays for what is determined between you and your STBX.

If you contest divorce - you will get yourself into a helluva mess, and that will cost a lot more. You agree that the marriage has broken down, it matters not one jot who divorces who in 99.9% of divorces.

He can file anything he likes, but no one will take it seriously if you have not consented. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. If you can't agree between yourselves and your solicitors, and then through mediation, a judge will get involved. Your costs will escalate to eye watering proportions.

If it helps, have a read of Terry's divorce forum - there's a ton in there that will open your eyes (and scare you) on all these issues, especially division of assets, loans etc.

I hope this helps. I'm not a solicitor but I am going through a divorce so I understand the panic, the stress and the emotions of it. I really do. However, don't do anything without your solicitor having a good discussion with you.

It's their job. They are allow holidays, nothing will be sneaked past a judge whilst s/he is tanning themself, I promise.

[EarthWindFire]

The process is a slow one and can take years. Nothing happens overnight.

If and it is if it goes to court then you go through several different stages with several months between each depending on court waiting times.

One thing I do know is it is best to try to come to a decision between yourselves without court. As pp have said the costs can be huge. When my DP went through his divorce it went to a final Hearing and there were legal bills of tens of thousands of pounds each.

The judge actually ordered the same percentages etc as my DP offered his ex wife when they first split. If she had taken his offer then it would have saved years of pain in what became a very acrimonious split.

Listen to your solicitors and see what they say.

[bella1968]

Thanks for your replies.I really think that on top of everything we can't afford the court fees it would be really nice to think that maybe he'll see sense before that.anyway I'm looking forward to getting my statement right on the acknowledgement slip tomorrow and getting the first mediation appointment over.

Wellwhoknew I've read all the stuff on terrys thanks and some of the forum which has got me in a twist.

Thanks again we'll see what tomorrow brings.

[WellWhoKnew]

Good luck, love. If there's anything I've learnt about divorce it's

1. don't panic
   
2. keep calm
   
3. breathe
   
   If you can't afford the court costs of litigation, then don't rush anything. Put a little time between the decision to divorce and filing for it if you can.
   
   The early months after you've decided to divorce are the most angry, adrenaline-fuelled, emotive of periods: the very conditions you should not be trying to make fair and rational decisions in.
   
   Divorce is making arrangement for the children and splitting the finances. It is not about who did what to who and who was the shittier spouse.
   
   If you've never been divorced before, it's a scary business. I haven't and there are times I've been terrified. The first few months I did panic thinking I was going to be stitched up like a kipper.
   
   I am being divorced by a man even less cool-headed, less rational and much more emotive that I. It's shit - and it's driving my costs up already to twice the budget. And we haven't even started yet...
   
   But that's because he's not yet 'seen sense'. Rely on yourself to see sense, leave him to figure it out for himself.
   
   After all, you're now separated. If you could have got him to 'see sense', you wouldn't be divorcing.
   
   That's my attitude these days, anyhow.

[bella1968]

thanks wellwhoknew you have a very good attitude if I may say

thanks for your words, I appreciate it. Is there somewhere that you can just keep posting to update anyone/everyone? to share sort of?

thanks. again.

[bella1968]

I've just read your post again wellwhoknew and it's something that I've been thinking alot about recently. The fact that you are supposed to communicate with each other in agreeing what's best for the children and our lives now when you couldn't do it before and that is why the divorce! it's ironic at best.

I did hesitate before I filed for divorce, I guess he took that as his opportunity to file first maybe foolishly thinking that that would make a difference!? but I know it doesn't. My solicitor is back now and is on the case. She said that divorce petition his solicitor filed is defective, it doesn't even state our children's names (which I did think a bit off that they weren't on it) and also that the non-mol/occupation court order that I got on 13th June was not on it either. She's writing to his solicitor today to say that we won't defend the petition as long as they drop their claim on me paying their costs and that I reserve the right to defend his statement re children/finances. We'll see what happens now.

[WellWhoKnew]

Good luck. It's truly a rough road. I rage on a thread called 'Dear STBXH' in Relationships which I make light of my STBXH many ironies!

Someone's just started a 'Twatty Ex's' thread, which has some amusing anecdotes in .

Divorce is a very ironic business indeed. Do come join us.

[WellWhoKnew]

PS I realise I didn't recommend it here, but I've recommended it to others:

I found Gordon and Slater's Family Law (on Kindle, but paperback is available) really informative in explaining the procedures, the relevant laws etc really useful. Although they are divorce lawyers, it's written for the first time divorcee, warns you about what mistakes not to make, how to keep costs lower etc.

Even though my solicitor had explained a lot, you can imagine that in the early days my head was a spaghetti mess and it was all very hard to take in.

I also found it very reassuring in that I am not going to be strung up like a kipper, but I am going to have to be patient to get to the end.

I am trying my best...

[FuckitAndStartAgain]

I do not seem to be able to find that book, I found the one by Stowe useful but thought I would look at the one you recommended. Can you check the details for me please?

[WellWhoKnew]

www.amazon.co.uk/Family-Law-Made-Simple-Separation-ebook/dp/B00IUJZ89G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408557915&sr=8-1&keywords=gordon%20and%20slater&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

here you are, got the names the wrong way round.

[FuckitAndStartAgain]

Thank you. I hope you are ok? Kind of you to take the time and effort to support others.

[WellWhoKnew]

You're welcome.

Y'know - just like all the others (and you!), it's good moments and bad. It's just that when I'm in my good moments, I'm defiantly fantastic.

I won't give you the grizzly details of the bad moments - I'm sure you know that first hand - but needless to say: I'm pitiful.

But as they say: KOKO - Keep on, keeping on.

Do come across to the moany side = there's humour to be found in dark times.

This thread is a great one:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2163729-twatty-things-I-dont-miss-about-my-ex?msgid=49005071

Take care, keep calm and KOKO!