STBXH asking for "all jewelry back" & child maintenance question ...

[daffydowndilly]

As part of his appalling behaviour towards me, he has flounced and asked for all the jewelry he bought be to be returned "as is custom" and "I am already late in doing so" (he walked out a few months back). Now I realise he is talking through his arse, but actually it did have me wondering whether personal gifts (engagement ring, wedding ring, necklace etc that are not worth more than - I have no idea, a few grand total, if that even second hand) - actually are something he could 'commandeer'.

The next thing he will play me for is maintenance for the children. He currently is unemployed, but about to start work again at the end of the month, if all things go well, and he intends to not pay me what he legally has to "as he has immediate debts" but will "try to help me". I am unsure whether just to see what happens, go the CSA, or a lawyer for a consent order as I currently am eligible for legal aid (I hope). Does anyone have experience of this? I was hoping to go down the child maintenance options route, but am feeling quite nervous about it. My understanding from CAB is that I am the highest priority for outgoings from his income, before debt, as the money is to feed and clothe his children.

And how do you deal with an angry, child-like man in a non-destructive grown up way [silent scream]. He only wants the rings back because he had to speak to the children by phone not skype, as we had guests over. It is seriously like dealing with an overgrown toddler (and I can't put him in time out.... can I?) [idea pops into head, eyebrow raised].

[aokay]

send him to his room...and no he can't take back his 'gifts' thats the thing with a gift - it isnt a loan!

[daffydowndilly]

Thanks aokay

Sorely tempted to send him to his room, or whatever equivalent there is for "adults". Ok I do know the answer to my question, set down boundaries, but it is quite tedious to have to constantly do it to someone who doesn't share my life anymore, and who so not behaving reasonably.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

Tell him to sod off about the jewellery.

With the money, tell him you will be contacting the CSA. What a self-important pillock he sounds!

[Catsmamma]

he can only get them back if it is an heirloom AND it was made clear at the time of gifting it that it was family jewels

otherwise tell him to do one! Or tell him you have already sold them in lieu of child support! :D

[daffydowndilly]

LOL at self-important pillock . My therapist is convinced that he is a narcissist, but I like pillock better! He is enjoying rewriting the rules and telling me what is "customary" in marriage breakdowns .

It would be hilarious if we didn't have children, that are the little victims in all of this. I think he feels that anything to help me and the children out, is him doing us a favour, so child support is a favour etc. And these favours can be withheld when I don't behave myself.

And I am now sighing a great big sigh of relief that I am going to see my divorce lawyer as soon as I have relocated with the children and will no longer be married to him! .

[BryterLayter]

Hi Daffy
I was interested to read the responses re jewellery as at a recent mediation session when we were going through 'financials' they (there are 2 mediators - 1 a solicitor & 1 a ?mediator) asked in the order of form E about assets : house, property, ?antiques/jewellery (if value over £500) & my charmer said well of course there's the engagement & eternity ring... the mediators shifted uneasily and spoke about these being quite difficult, emotional items that didn't necessarily have to be counted but he said he wanted them included even though I didn't.
We were supposed to bring back valuations to the next meeting (car,property Rings etc) but as I can't take my engagement ring off - its on my right hand now, it couldn't be valued & there wasn't time to get it done - interestingly when they sent us both the full financial statement it referred to things that were still outstanding info but not the rings... so I'm not sure if they deliberately did that to make STBX uncomfortable & have to ask again.. or maybe it was just an oversight. Yet to have follow up meeting so will let you know if any further 'factual info' comes out.

[EdithWeston]

It's traditional to give the engagement ring back if you break it off before the wedding. Indeed sticklers might recommend returning all expensive presents bought in the expectation of the marriage that did no take place.

But that tradition doesn't apply after marriage.

If any jewellery was previously owned and worn by someone in his family, then I think it should be returned without fuss. But not his presents to you, whether jewellery or anything else.

[BryterLayter]

Absolutely agree Edith, if it had been passed on I wouldn't view it the same way but we chose & bought the engagement ring together (probably jointly funded really as we were living together so all expenses were joint) & I chose the eternity ring too. Nothing flashy but after 28 years of marriage I'm quite attached to them & had hoped to pass them on to our kids.. not just sell them so he can have the cash to throw after yet another hair-brained scheme.

[daffydowndilly]

No no heirlooms.

Engagement and wedding ring, and some jewelry given as 30th and similar birthday presents. Bought with joint money, as stupidly by that point all my salary went into the joint account. I probably will sell them, once I work out where to do so, but the money would go towards buying bunk beds and feeding the kids, so am very reluctant to give it to him so fund his drinking.

Interesting about the lawyers Bryter, it does sound like he won't "win" that one. Though how could be stop you giving it to your daughter right now anyway....

[TheProvincialLady]

Is he also going to return those socks you bought him and that Dido cd? What a berk.

[HecateHarshPants]

Go to the CSA re maintenance. He doesn't have the right to not pay for the children he helped to create.

And gifts are gifts. He's no right to them back.

tell him that as he seems to feel that his children eating isn't his problem, you'll be selling the gifts to ensure that you make up for his shortfall and compensate for his failure to provide his share for his children but you are going to do maintenance through the CSA from day one, so he needn't take this as you letting him off his obligation.

And I'd be adding that it's also 'customary' to financially provide for your offspring, but he doesn't seem interested in that custom, does he?

(I loathe people who try to duck out of their responsibility, can you tell? )

[PigletJohn]

The second-hand value of jewellery is only a fraction of the new retail price, and a trade buyer would pay only a fraction of that (I heard a jeweller liken it to selling your Ferrari as a ton of steel scrap) so this is mostly an emotional row, not a financial one. I think you could do worse than get them valued at the price they would fetch if you sold them, and only quibble about that figure.

In the end I wouldn't have thought he'd have any right to the jewellery any more than you could claim his Rolex, but I know nothing.

[Gigaflops]

Hi OP
I was in your situation this time last year, and also dithered about, waiting to see if XH would do the right thing re maintenance. He didn't - saying his other debts came first (his new convertible BMW, Macbook Air etc!!) and for nine months I received no money from him despite constant promises of "you'll have it next week". Eventually I took him to the CSA - which he was FURIOUS about, as now the power was taken away from him! - and got my money taken out of his salary before he gets paid it.
However they were unable to recoup the nine months he owed me, as they only process claims from the date you first contact them. So my advice is DON'T WAIT - call the CSA tomorrow morning and get the process started - otherwise like me you'll be nine months out of pocket.

As for the rings - they're your chldrens' inheritance - he can go jump!

(can you tell this is all rather a sore point for me - even twelve months later!)

[TodaysAGoodDay]

The jewellery is yours. And if he starts a job he has to pay you the correct amount of maintenance, regardless of his debts. Please call the CSA tomorrow, as it takes ages for the payments to start coming through. Good luck.

[daffydowndilly]

Giga I think you are making a really good point. I suspect that his needs/ his debts/ his desire not to do me favours will override his responsibilities. I am going to see a lawyer in a few weeks and get advice how to best deal with him, and his first paycheck shouldn't be before the end of August so that should be ok timing wise.

It is all turning into a real control game for him. He won't see the kids, as it is doing me a favour getting time off from parenting, he won't arrange to call them at mututally convenient times, but texts 30s before bedtime insisting that that is a good time for a 45 minute skype chat. And when I refuse, I am damaging my children's mental health?!? It is so frustrating, as I want our children to see him and to chat to him, but I also have to have boundaries so that I don't feel suffocated.

And as piglet points out the rings etc are probably not worth fighting over, as they lost most of their value when they left the shop.

Hectate I am of the same mind about shirking responsibilities. At the same time I have so much self-doubt about my role in all of this and whether I should be doing more to support my children and make sure they have a relationship with their father, but at the same time he hasn't seen them for 5 weeks and that is entirely his decision and his choice. I can't force a relationship, I can't be a walk-over with no boundaries, and I can't be his mother and create a father-children relationship. It is immensely frustrating. But whatever he should damn well be making sure I can feed and clothe them!!! (And not cash in all my nectar points for amazon vouchers, which is a totally different moan on my part, I didn't even know he could access them - I have now cancelled his card on my account).

[fuzzywuzzy]

I went thro the CSA I'd start my claim now to be honest, the longer you leave it the more money your children lose. You'll get something like a fiver a week per child if he's on benefits.

As for jewellery I told the judge that the jewellery gifted to me by ex, which was prior to marriage anyway, was customarily passed on to the children of the family in our culture and therefore I do not regard my jewellery as a realisable asset rather more a trust for my children. The judge was happy with that and when ex objected he was pretty scathing to him.

If you have no sentimental attachment to the jewellery I'd sell it to help with expenses, otherwise keep it and state it will be passed on to your children eventually.

[washingonawednesday]

Well I took great joy in selling my rings- I used a pawn shop and got a much better price than 'cash for gold'. I then went shopping.

He upgraded me for a fat uglier older version of myself... I upgraded my rings for some clothes for my boy, shoes, money towards a holiday and a shopping spree in boots!

As the MasterCard ad goes ' not being married to a dickhead, priceless!'

[Collaborate]

Jewellery is seldom taken in to account on divorce unless it is particularly valuable. It also depends on the value of other assets.

Say there is only £10k to divide, yet the jewellery is worth (resale value) a similar amount. I'd expect it to be taken in to account. If there was say £100k of equity, and the usual cars and endowment, I'd not expect the jewellery to carry much weight.

Anyway, ownership of a gift is vested in the recipient, and the donor cannot demand it be returned. The court can, in divorce, alter the ownership of assets, but comments in the para above apply there.