IVF question - have I got bad eggs?

[beanery]

After finally resorting to IVF afer 3 years of trying for second child (first was very easily concieved), I would appreciate some points of view.

All went well with egg collection (I only have one ovary) - 13 collected, 10 mature, 8 fertilised.

The embryologist was very pleased and they all were really good at grade 1, so she suggested going for 5 day blastocycst transfer.

Everything seemed to be going so well (too good to be true I thought and I was right.) By day 4 we still had 5 good ones going strong.

Then on day of transfer, day 5 there was just one decent blastocyst (not quite fully expanded) and one not so good one and 3 that were still trying to get there.

So we transferred the good one yesterday, hoping the rest might continue over night. We got the call today that the other 4 are now all blastocysts but pretty poor quality, so none to freeze.

Gutted obviously. But more gutted that the embryoloigst said it was rare for none of them to be freezable. She assured us that the one they put back yesterday, was miles ahead of these but now I am worried about that one too. Particularly as I don't feel pregnant in the slightest.

So - because only 1 out of 8 eggs got to blasto - do you think that makes my eggs rubbish? I know not all of them can get that far but they quoted me 40 - 50%. And we were at around 15%.

I am 36.

Would really love some feedback. thanks

[EuroShaggleton]

On the open day at my clinic they said that after day 3 it is the sperm that carries the embryo forward. I'm not 100% convinced, but the embryo is 50% the partners genetic material, so I guess it is equally likely to be a sperm issue as an egg one.

[beanery]

true thanks.

I am wondering (hoping) if it might be a bit of bad luck as well, as the embroyologist said something about the fact that they start degenerating after being in the lab too long - perhaps they might have done better back inside a bit earlier. Although, I know that they say if they don't make it in the dish, they probably wouldn't make it in utero either.

My husbands sperm morphology isn't brilliant ( varies between 3% - 9%) but that has never been seen as an issue.

[blondebaby111]

Hi beanery, i have the same sort of worry. We had ivf last year and got six eggs,5 fertilised and by day 5 we still had 3 going strong. They wasn't high grade, just somewhere inbetween but still said they were good. We had one emby trasferred and the other two were left overnight. Then we got the phonecall to say they were still doing what they should but unfortunately couldn't be frozen. I was gutted!! I got told not to worry it didn't mean the one inside me wouldn't take but they had a maximum amount of time to keep them before they have to decide whether to freeze or not.

Then a fortnight later we found out it had failed. I always thought that if eggs fertilised they were of good quality but apparently not, they can still fertilise. I also worry that my eggs are poor quality. We are ready tostart again may time....are u going to give it another go???

[missbrightside]

Keep positive Beanery. Embryos will react differently after transfer so you can't compare them with the ones that remained in the lab (even though I know from experience that it's impossible not to....) I've googled embryo quality FOR HOURS and for every story of a good embryo failing you'll find a story of a poor embryo succeeding. In my very unqualified opinion I think there is still lots not totally understood about why some embryos result in a pregnancy and some don't ....

I am in a very similar position. We have had two textbook perfect IVF cycles ... up until about day 4 following EC when all seems to go a bit tits up. Lets just say I've burst into tears in the car after both transfers because of the quality of our embryos ....

We have moved to ARGC for our third and (final ?) go who didn't seem overly concerned by our past response. They (very discretely !) rolled their eyes when I said that our last clinic only did egg collection on certain days which possibly meant that I over stimmed. Even a short delay in egg collection can mean the difference between a 'good' and a 'bad' egg. So I'm hoping that for us their daily monitoring might be the answer to our prayers .....

All the very best to you xx

[missbrightside]

I missed a bit ... !

They also recommended sperm DNA fragmentation tests as fragmentation issues can affect embryo quality. These won't be shown in a normal SA test.

(Although for us DP has had these tests and they have come back fine)

xx

[beanery]

thanks for the messages folks.

missbrightside, what did your first clinc say to you about your response and then the decline in embryo quality?

Interesting what the ARGC says. I have googled myself silly and there does seem to be a link between your protocol and egg quality too. What was your protocol?

I am wondering if I was given too high a dose of Menopur - I was taking 225iu (and they wanted to give me for 300 initially, which I queried). I responded well (13 eggs - i only have one ovary) so maybe there was an element of being a bit too aggressive (particularly as the ovary is polycystic too and google tells me this can affect quality.) Another clinic I went to for inital consultations suggested I would get more in the region of 6 eggs.

I am all for quality over quantity to be honest.

I am feeling incredibly premenstrual and shi**y - I think it's the dissapointment of feeling like it is all over already with my little blasto. I have had terrible insomnia, as I do in the lead up to my period, even though it's still a week away. I am sure the stress is not helping and that cyclogest is evil too!

Blondebaby, perhaps we'll do it again at some point but we don't really have the funds, so it depends on whether we can raise some cash and what they tell us in our review meeting. Will you? Where are you haiving it?

[missbrightside]

Hello

You really have my sympathies on the progesterone insomnia. It got so bad I began knitting a jumper .......

But do keep positive. It's not over till it's over.

After the first failure we weren't really given any real reason for the decine in embryo quality. All the consultant had to say was 'chromosonal abnormality' (but then never adequately explained what he meant by this). After our second failure we had lost what little faith we had in the clinic - had decided we COULDN'T BEAR the consultant - and didn't even bother going back for a review meeting .......

I too believe it should be quality over quantity. I got 10 and 20 eggs respectively. The second cycle with 20 eggs was ridiculous. The nurses seemed really pleased that there were 'so many follicles' - but then had a last minute panic when I became borderline OHSS .....

Of those 20 eggs 5 were immature, 10 fertilised, we left them to day 5, but by the time we got to egg collection none had reached blast and only two were viable to transfer. The Consultant initially told us that it wasn't great that they hadn't reached blast - but then he sent us off with a really over the top cheery 'good luck - maybe it will be twins - hopefully be seeing you for a scan at 7 weeks - really hope this works for such a nice couple ... ' I've since had a copy of my notes and he actually wrote in capitals 'VERY POOR QUALITY' in relation to the transferred embryos. I really do wish he had been honest with us on the day ......

Ohhhh .... I'm getting angry just thinking about it

(and totally lost the point of what I was actually responding to !!)

Take good care of yourself - and stop googling (I have no idea how I can say that with a straight face as I do EXACTLY the same. It's torturous ....)

xx

[galwaygirl]

Hi beanery, it's just as likely to be the sperm that are the issue here. My DH initally had a morphology of 3% but got it up to almost 15 by strict lifestyle changes and taking these supplements - think they were the Marilyn Glenville ones. He was really clean living in the 3 months up to our cycle to give him the best chance.
I also think the choice of clinic plays a huge part, I would never waste my time on a clinic that had restrictions on what day they did egg retrieval as one day either way can make all the difference.
Not sure if I should give my stats but as I also had 13 eggs I will do because I think the big difference could be due to sperm and clinic. I had 13 eggs retrieved, 12 of which were suitable for ICSI, 11 fertilised, 5 made it to day 5. Had one top grade blast replaced resulting in DD (21 months), were told 3 of the other 4 looked really good but the next day they felt all 4 were suitable for freezing. Now our results were above average but I strongly feel that it was due to the clinic and also to my poor DH's strictness with himself to ensure sperm were as good as they could be.
I really hope this cycle works for you but if not dont let the clinic fob you off as to why it didn't, try to press them for answers.

[beanery]

oh no missbrightside your experience with your clinic sounds awful! I would hope they can be upfront with you - no point giving you false hope.

I think/hope they were honest with us they said our only decent blasto was 'good' and 'nice' and the other best contender (which we didn't bother to transfer) didn't have a very good inner cell mass (or something like that!)

ANyway, the whole experience of ET sent me into a massive negative spiral as the consultant couldn't get through my cervix for ages. I really thought they were going to call the whole thing off and so did my DH and he the most positive optimistic person I know!

I wonder if there is something in the fact that you had so many eggs that quantity was slightly compromised?

galwaygirl which clinic were you at? Congrats on the success by the way. I think ours is pretty well regarded but I was suprised by how apparently little thought they seem to put into which protocol they put you in and the random amounts of drugs they put you on.

I know lifestyle can make a massive impact on sperm - my DH has had massive changes in his from supplements and healthy eating but he is not massively discplined at keeping it up for sustained periods, so his morph and motility change every time he has a SA done. His count is always good.

[beanery]

PS - stop googling? Ha ha!! (will try my best)