TTC Super Ovulation part 3

(978 Posts)
Arianrhod Mon 08-Oct-12 08:30:07

Hey ladies -

There are a few of us who are ttc after mc's, however there will be ladies out there who are also ttc for the first time or second or third without success. If anyone is on, considering or had success on a super ovulation programme then do join us. How long did it take ? Did you try IUI with it.. ? Did you have PCOS?

Kicking this off and hoping some of you will join....

part 1 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1385998-TTC-Super-Ovulation

Part 2 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1475108-TTC-Super-Ovulation-part-2?pg=1

BellyD Thu 21-Mar-13 14:29:10

Hi all. Duggs I did SO three times (with Mr S) having also used clomid at St Mary's. I was lucky enough to get two bfp's in those 3 months but both preg's ended in mmc. Unfussy womb? Interestingly, the second time Mr S said I had responded to the letrozole like a 20year old - but my AMH after that MC was 0.59. I then had a scan at Create which showed I had 10 antral follicles - which Dr Ndukwe said meant my AMH result should have been higher - weird! We have decided on ivf to control every step of the process in the hope of getting my nkc under control and testing any embryo's we are lucky enough to produce. Mr S suggested not to do this due to the expense and said we should keep going with SO - the worst case scenario being "you could just have another miscarriage"! Unbelievable, don't think I need to say any more as you ladies will understand.

Ari thanks for the article links. Interesting reading x

Arianrhod Thu 21-Mar-13 14:53:42

belly If I were you, I'd be doing exactly the same. Sometimes controlling every step you can (obviously we can't control ALL of it, unfortunately!) is the best way, and best for as much peace of mind as is possible to have in this process. There's far too much of a random element in all of this for my liking, control-freak that I am! smile

Arianrhod Fri 22-Mar-13 13:55:18

Hi ladies - I've been reading around on Dr Braverman's site (he's one helpful chap, albeit I understand stonkingly expensive to have even a Skype consultation with!) and just read something really interesting on low LAD levels (I have unbelievably low LAD levels) as I think a couple of others on here also got tested? Anyway, just thought I'd share, in the spirit of being better informed! smile The lady in question had had a previous live birth, which is why he mentions that.

<quote>
contrary to the incorrect thinking about LAD, if you have had a live birth you DONT want to have a positive LAD this is a sign you did not get rid of your anti HLA antibodies by failing to make the protective or blocking antibodies. The LAD does NOT test for blocking antibodies it only makes the incorrect assumption that if you have the bad anti HLA antibodies you probably made the protective ones.
It is good that yoru LAD was low, it means that is not your problem. Also you dont make anti HLA antibodies until the 3rd trimester you also should not see them in someone who has never made it past the first trimester.
The clexane should cover your other issues.

(look at my blogs for more on the LAD testing issue). LIT is recommended to frequently for the wrong reason . It may however still be good for other issues.
</quote>

and a bit later:

<quote>
there is a lot of confusion about LAD that I have been trying to clear up on our website. I hope I explain this well. The LAD looks for the presence of "bad" HLA antibodies, that means these antibodies WILL attack the pregnancy. It does not measure the production of the 'good" antibodies called protecive or blocking antibodies. It has been incorreclty asummed that if the bad ones are there the good ones must be too? This has been disproven.
When you are pregnant the your body first makes the bad antibodies in the third trimester, then you make the good ones which do away with . So if you come around to your next pregnancy and they are still there that is bad, it means you did NOT make the protective ones.
New studies have shown that a high LAD with a history of a previous full term pregnancy is a poor sign for success of the next ones.
Since we dont know from LIT who will and wont make the protective antibody we have to be very carefull who we recommend it to , especially if they have already completed a full term pregnancy.
</quote>

So it looks like if you haven't got into the third trimester, then you WILL have low LAD levels anyway - so they're not something to worry about. Well that's one less thing on my list of worries, anyway! smile

Pebbles73 Mon 25-Mar-13 08:55:56

Morning all, thanks for the info Ari.

Just need to ask a question, my af is due now and started some light spotting Friday night. The thing is it is still just spotting and not needed to use anything if you know what I mean. I normally have bad stomach cramps as well and only had very faint cramping. I normally spot for a day max and then go into full flow, anyone else had anything similar?

Arianrhod Mon 25-Mar-13 13:56:08

pebbles Would there be a chance of a BFP, possibly? I'm sure you've thought of that and tested, but I just wondered. The only other time I've heard those symptoms (other than in myself, since my AFs changed - I've had what you describe) as being an anovulatory cycle - but that's outside of my field of research, so I can't say it might be that! I'm plumping for late BFP? smile

Pebbles73 Mon 25-Mar-13 18:25:47

I have done a test late this afternoon to rule it out more than anything and is a bfn. Thanks for the anovulatory tip, will do some googling!

duggs1976 Thu 28-Mar-13 06:31:35

Oh wrote message but lost ithmm
Pebbles how r u doing ?
Brown wow a heartbeat grin what cycle of SO was this ? That makes you and kittens hope for the rest of us? How is choccy these days ?

Pebbles73 Thu 28-Mar-13 18:08:32

Is very quiet on here at the mo, where is everybody?? smile

Well Duggs still just lightly spitting with no proper af so did a hpt to try with fmu yesterday and not even hint of a line (believe me I checked from every angle under different lights!!) so I guess a wtf cycle for me!

How is everything with you Duggs? I see from your post Brown has send a heartbeat so very pleased for her.

Hope everyone enjoys the break.x

duggs1976 Fri 29-Mar-13 06:22:02

Oh pebbles how bloody Annoyong? Wtf indeed.well without boring y'all with the details I had my follow up NHS app yesterday at hammersmith. ( aside from an administrative nightmare they must all work in) I'm lucky enough to get an IVF round but because st Mary's and hammersmith seem incapable to sharing test results I'm now still waiting since last September. Anyway blaa what I wanted to ask u ladies is what was thought about TSH thyroid stimulating hormone? I think it's called. I can see my level was 2 last summer and then in feb it was 2.4. The dr said they prefer it to be between 1 & 2 for ttc. Just thought I'd ask. I know there is discussion about AMH but I have heard follicle count is more accurate. I guess the only use of this is if a solution or action can help so brown and ari seem pretty clued up. Sue too... Good to hear from breezy as well.

Mel3062 Fri 29-Mar-13 20:55:57

Brown that's great news! I'm ok just had last humira and got 2 more scan announcements at work its so hard, it's been a year since I saw mr s and had last mc. It's so hard sad sorry for negative post x

suemays Sat 30-Mar-13 09:16:13

Hi ladies, looks like I will be joining the ivf crew on here. Going to one of the lister satellite clinics on wed to talk about my low amh and see if I would be able to do ivf. I spoke to Louise at nlc and she said my amh level was normal for my age of 40/41 and not to worry too much. They are more interested in Fsh apparently and that can be bought down by going on the pill for a month. She suggested superov to me but we have already decided we have wasted enough time plus I had two chemicals on superov last year. She also told me about the new tnf alpha test but to be honest we are scraping the money together for ivf so can't afford extra expenses on top. I will ask the ivf consultant on wed and go with what they say. I will follow mr s's immune protocol with ivf though as I know it worked for me last time.
Who has had this new test? Is everyone testing positive for it?
After getting my amh result I am actually wondering if all my miscarriages are just down to old and bad eggs and that maybe it is not due to nkc? If that is the case then ivf in a controlled environment is my only hope as I could be waiting years for the elusive quality egg to ovulate. I know mr s says that only a good quality egg will start a pregnancy but how can they know this in every woman?

suemays Sat 30-Mar-13 09:20:27

Well done brown by the way!
I forgot to say that a friend of mine has leant me a book called inconceivable. It's a woman's story of being told she was infertile and then changing her diet etc and had children. Haven't read it yet but the reviews on amazon look good with some people having their own successes.
Does anyone drink wheatgrass as I am thinking of starting it?

duggs1976 Sat 30-Mar-13 10:05:14

Wow sue I am so proud of you and your strength and determination. There is every reason you will be successful with another pregnancy and I do think that you are making the right choices so move forward. I haven't read that book but I do know the theories about drinking lots of water and full fat milk, warm foods etc when doing ivf according to zita west and ARGC. We should pool our ivf diet and environment tips...do u know much about thyroid stimulating hormone ? Mine came back 2.4 and they prefer it to be between 1 & 2 for a pregnancy which is probably why I am struggling to conceive nowadays too. Going to ask GP for medication to get my verging on hypothyroidism results down. Us lot should write a book....

duggs1976 Sat 30-Mar-13 10:08:33

Oh yes I had the TNF alpha test with dr g and I wasn't positive for it. To be honest dr g has been doing this for ages dr s is just slower to jump on to it. I doubt you have an issue with it as Scarlet go so far last year. I'd concentrate on the ivf and egg side like you are doing at least it's a controlled environment as you say. X

brownstag Sat 30-Mar-13 17:23:08

Thanks for everyone's good wishes. I understand how down a lot of you are feeling as I was there myself only a few weeks ago. No one is more amazed about gettting pregnant than I am; I thought of myself as totally infertile. If I can do it, so can you.
Duggs, the person to answer your question about the thyroid, if she's hovering, is SWLondonNanny.
Sue, will you ask them about DHEA when you go to the Lister? Usually centres who use it like you to take it for at least 3 months before any fertility treatment. It's supposed to reduce aneuploidy rates and miscarriage rates in older and younger women, as well as increase response to fertility drugs. If it were me, I'd start both DHEA and co-enzyme q10 now. Hopefully you'd get pregnant before the acne stage! Having said that, not everyone is a fan; it didn't suit ARi, for instance, but I can't think of any reason why I would have got pregnant at nearly 42 when I didn't at 41, 40 or 39.
When I had my scan, by the way, one ovary still had one of the two follicles that was meant to have been released at trigger. It's now 4cm! Which makes it even more amazing that I got pregnant, as I only released one egg. Plus a lining of only 6.5cm ...

Breezyweezy Sat 30-Mar-13 18:42:03

brown congrats also from me. You are my shining beacon of hope that one day I will get there too. Amazing too about the 4cm follicle - what have they said about that, will they just leave it and see if it goes down on its own?

Sue just answering your pred thread questions. The Lister didn't tell me to start co-q10, I did that off my own back at the beginning of December after reading various posts Ari and brown had written about it helping egg quality for low AMH ladies. I also thought about DHEA and had consults in November with Dr Gorgy (put off by the hardcore tests he suggested! blush and CRM who both suggested the micronised DHEA, but being a woosy I decided to go for the natural co-q10 instead and see if that helped. When I mentioned I was taking this to The Lister the other week, the consultant was more than happy and said great keep taking it and when I asked about DHEA he said hold fire for now and wants to see how I respond on our first cycle, whenever that will be, as my antral follicle count doesn't properly tally up with the AMH result. I haven't had my AMH re-tested since last June. Not sure if it is worth it and Dr Thum didn't seem to think it worthwhile either. Oh and am trying for our first baby after 3 mc over the past 4 and 1/2 years.

Duggs hope all progresses swiftly with your NHS cycle. I don't have any words of wisdom about TSH levels. I did have mine tested as part of the NHS tests in Feb and mine was 1.09 with the Free T4 at 15.5. The Lister thought my levels were fine, but when we went for our £££ tests on Wednesday thyroid function was one of them, so not too sure why I was having it done again so soon hmm.

Pebbles sorry to hear about your WTF cycle. I had one of those 2 months back which got me all excited - stupid me! Started spotting at 7dpo, not much but a tiny bit on and off and it kept going until my period finally arrived at 13dpo. Rubbish! I too went through lots of cheap tests and held them up to different lights in the house thinking is there a line or isn't there??!! Total headf**k and very annoying!! Hope your cycle sorts its self out asap.

Mel can totally sympathise with the announcements. I am on jury service at the moment (just finished week 12 shock and still not done) and I sit next to a girl who is now 11 weeks pg. She told me at 6 weeks as we happened to have chatted about kids, pgs and mc and I told her of my issues as I had to have time off for various appointments. One day out of the blue she asked my "advice" as she was having bad tummy pains and told me her news as she wanted to know what I would do. I told her to get a scan, so off she went the next day and was told that she had been pg with twins (naturally after 2 months trying!) but one had died but the other was going strong. Of course I am happy for her, even though I don't even really know her, but it still hurts that it's not me pg after such a long time!

Belly and Ari how are you both getting on with your IVF journeys?

Happy Easter and chocolate scoffing to all! grin

Pebbles73 Sat 30-Mar-13 23:12:56

Duggs my tsh level is 2.8 which I thought was a bit high as had read they like it to be 2 when ttc but all the places I have been treated said it was fine. The sheet with my results on say anything under 5 is normal range. I thought Mr S would want to treat me for it but he said it wasn't high enough to worry about.

Sorry you are feeling down Mel, it is so difficult having to happy for everyone else who is pregnant all the time. Big hugs.

Great to hear from you *Sue but obviously sorry that you are needing to go the ivf route. Sounds like it is the best thing for you to be doing in your situation though. I have been tested for tnf-alpha and it came back high so going to try the humira when I can get the money together in the next few wks. I understand what you mean about the cost as it is sooo expensive!!

Great news Brown, it certainly gives the rest of us done hope. smile

Well I am now on 8 days of spotting which has lots of little fibres and looks how the end if my miscarriage looked. I am having a lot of cramping on and off and lower back pain. Is driving me mad now! confused

duggs1976 Sun 31-Mar-13 07:11:18

Hey pebbles... Sorry to hear this - was it a chemical perhaps? Well a doctor at hammersmith hospital who specialises in recurrent implantation and ivf failure say the most recent studies want TSH closer to 1 and between 1 & 2 for ladies TTC? It would ok otherwise a little high but ok. It increases the risk of miscarriage and failure to conceive as the body is needing the thyroid for the embryonic first trimester. Again is a newish area but v easily fixed by a little hormone pill.. She has re tested me and will ask my GP to prescribe the hormone low dose if still over 2. I notice in 2011 my level was 2 and I was getting pg back then before I mucked my body up with steroids so maybe related? I appreciate it probably isn't your answer but i figured why not do everything possible to help. . But I guess you need a dr who knows. So impossible there isn't a collective view. You are nice and slim though pebbles but I'm not and I always get so tired despite doing regular exercise? I'm going to get some acupuncture to see if it can help re balance my hormones. Wish we all had reproductive endocrinologists like in the US hmm thanks brown - SWLondon r u there?
Sue looks like u r in great hands!

Arianrhod Tue 02-Apr-13 11:13:07

Hi ladies - Gosh, lots been happening on the thread over the Easter break!

TSH - well free is your expert for this duggs since she's battled thyroid issues for many years and was my guide initially when I was diagnosed, but what I know of it is this. Most REs etc like to see TSH between 1 and 2 as you say, but I've not been told it's a problem for getting pregnant, just an issue once you are pregnant. Mr S told me he likes to see it less than 2.5 ideally, and prescribed thyroxine for me as mine was 3.29 initially. Also though, you need to know what your FT4 is - mine was low, below the reference range, and that was another indicator I needed thyroxine.

breezy It's highly likely you're having thyroid function tests done for thyroid antibodies - were they tested when you had your TSH/FT4 done before?

Co-Q10 - yes, Mr Shehata told me to take that when I first saw him, I was rather surprised that he doesn't say that to everyone. I follow the recommendation as posted in various places of 600mg per day, but that may be overkill, I don't know. It's an antioxidant and can't do you any harm at all, so doesn't really matter how much you take I believe. On top of that I also take resveratrol and pycnogenol, both also antioxidants, and recommended by various people for egg/uterine health amongst other things.

DHEA - I've cautioned careful use of this before, and will do so again. I recommend it highly (clearly it was a Good Thing for brown smile ), but only if you get your DHEA/DHEA-S/testosterone levels tested before and during use. DHEA can (so I hear) work wonders for ladies whose DHEA levels are low, but it can be disastrous if your levels are already good or high. DHEA gets converted into testosterone or estrogen - and too much testosterone can adversely affect your eggs. It's something of a wonder drug I understand for those whose DHEA is low (or lowish), but I wouldn't take it again without having my levels monitored. The side effects like hair loss, spots etc are one thing, and can be lived with (although I found the side effects I had not easy to live with personally), but potentially damaging the very thing you're trying to make better is something else altogether. Take it, by all means, but I would personally caution against taking it unmonitored, as I did. I wouldn't do it unmonitored again.

sue Really good to hear from you, sorry to hear about your low AMH test but honestly, I've seen so many people get pregnant after getting a low AMH test that I wonder whether it really means very much. Welcome to the slowly growing group of us now doing IVF, and I really hope it holds the answer for you.

pebbles Sorry about the WTF cycle, sometimes I really think someone somewhere is having a bl**dy good laugh at our expense. And if I ever find that someone I'm going to give them a darn good slapping! smile

AFM .. well, we're off to Serum in just over 2 weeks for our face-to-face consultation with the lovely Penny (I've had three phone calls with her already, all at her expense and instigation. I'd hate to see her phone bill!). I'm rather bricking it, not really because of the procedure but the costs. Even though Serum's IVF costs are really good compared to UK ones, when you add in the hysto and medications, it all adds up. And I am thinking I'd really like to try neupogen as I want to throw everything we can at it, Penny's not averse to trying whatever I want but neupogen is major ££ as far as I can tell and daily injections - and I'll already be doing daily injections of Clexane, which is also not cheap. So cost-wise, I'm a bit worried .. my mum's very kind gift of £5K to do this isn't going to cover meds or the hysto, so not quite sure where the money is coming from or whether DP will help out with the costs. At least he's accepted he has to have the standard pre-IVF blood tests done (HIV etc), so I'm trying to organise that at the moment but we go away to Spain on Tuesday so trying to cram everything in before we go. Ah well, think positive, the Universe will provide the money and all that ... ! smile

Just thought I'd mention, for those vaguely interested in DE IVF, something that Penny called 'super donors'. She explained that every IVF clinic in the world has what they call 'super donors' who, for some reason that they don't know, produce eggs that almost always result in a good pregnancy, no matter what the host mother's issues. She said they truly don't know why this happens, the eggs appear exactly the same as other people's in terms of structure, health, etc, but for some reason they don't know yet they are just more successful. They believe it's something to do with the immune system of the donor, but they don't know. Apparently it's very rare - she said out of 250 donors at their clinic they regard maybe 5 or 6 donors to be 'super donors'. It does mean you have less of a choice when it comes to specifying characteristics you'd like to have in a donor, but frankly as long as they're not dark-skinned and 6'2" (I'm 5'3" and very pale-skinned) and they're reasonably intelligent, I really don't care much. Penny says she feels we've gone through so much already she wants to give us as much of a chance as possible, and so wants to use a 'super donor' for us, which I thought really nice of her. Anyway, just thought it might be of some interest.

/waves to everyone, hope you all had a good Easter!

Pebbles73 Wed 03-Apr-13 13:40:57

All sounds very exciting Ari and love the sound of the super donors, wish you lots of luck.

Well af 'proper' eventually showed up on Sunday very heavy and very painful. Also have come down with a cold which will be my tird since December, does this mean my nkc's are low??

Waves to all.

Pebbles73 Wed 03-Apr-13 17:26:22

Sorry should have been third not tird!!

suemays Wed 03-Apr-13 22:04:35

Just got back from my appointment at the Lister satellite clinic. It went as I expected it to - little chance of a successful go at IVF but he suggested that we try stimulation to see if they can get any eggs before we commit to an expensive round of IVF. He did an antral follicle scan and said there was activity and seemed surprised so maybe thats why he suggested the stimulation to see if it works? Apparently every woman responds differently to the stimulation drugs but as a general rule the lower the AMH the less eggs will be collected and its all a numbers game. If that doesnt work he suggested clomid as he thinks my termination is the reason my cycles are still irregular and that I have no chance of conceiving at the moment as am probably not ovulating.

He said I might have always had a low AMH or it could have happened recently, there is no way to tell and also no way to tell if I am about to go into the menopause as some women can have low AMh levels for years and remain the same figure. I am a bit reassured in a way as he said my egg quality must be good to get pregnant as quick and as many times as I have in the past. It might be that TTC naturally or on clomid/letrozole is the only way. The consultant I saw said that FSH doesnt make much difference to IVF as he has treated women successfully with levels as high as 40 - it all depends on how you react to the drugs.

Ari I didnt realise you were going for donor eggs. Dont think I am at that stage yet or if I ever will be as we discussed that earlier. I dont know if I would treat the other child the same as my DD. Everyone is different though - one of my friends has 2 DE kids after years of infertility from the same donor.

TSH was discussed with me too and the Lister like it to be under 2 as well due to increased miscarriage rates when it is higher.

I asked about DHEA and co enzyme q10 etc but he said there was no evidence to back it up and that its impossible to tell if its just co-incidence or not. Also most people where it doesnt work don't post on the internet so it skews the perception. He said to be careful of taking supplements incase it makes matters worse (as Ari was saying). I do think we all clutch at straws and there is no magic formula otherwise there would be no infertility in the world. Again I wonder how many of my miscarriages are down to old eggs rather than other issues?

lemonsherbet Thu 04-Apr-13 00:17:18

Hi sue sounds like they are at least being sensible, in wanting to see how you respond to the drugs first, rather than getting you to spend lots of money without knowing how you respond to the drugs.

I can not remember who was asking about TSH. But when I first saw Mr S it was in the normal range but pretty sure he said to get it between 1-2. He prescribed my thyroxine. But like you all know, despite pred etc NK went up. He suggested hydroxychloroquine and SO. So we stopped everything and touch wood everything is going Ok with this pregnancy.

Sorry for the lack of name checking. Hope everyone is doing OK

lemonsherbet Thu 04-Apr-13 07:43:56

Sorry was in a bit of a rush last night.

Ari it sounds like you are in good hands. Think it is lovely that she is planning on finding a superdonor for you. Makes you wonder if they will find a reason why different peoples eggs are more successful in the future. Also interesting that it seems that these superpowered eggs can survive any hostile environment. May be there is more going on than we realise.

pebbles sorry about the WTF cycle. When I was initially reading your messages I had my fingers crossed for you that it was a BFP. It just seems so unfair to have a WTF cycle.

duggs do you know when they are planning on doing your IVF cycle? It sounds like the NHS doctor you are seeing knows his stuff though.

breezy know what you mean about announcements. There are many times that I have gone off and had a cry afterwards. It is not that I am not pleased for them but did keep thinking when will it be my turn.

I hope you do not mind me posting still on this board. It is just I can not seem to find a thread that I feel happy on. We also went through so much together and although I am not a Mr S success story you all know the struggles of recurrent miscarriage. I look at the June antenatal thread but do not feel that I can post there. They all seem so happy and blissfully unaware of what can go wrong. I keep waiting for this pregnancy to end and think I will struggle all the way through. Sorry for being so me related at the end.

Hope I have not missed anyone out. If you want I can dig out my TFT results and see what they were when Mr S recommended thyroxine to me. Let me know.

Mel3062 Thu 04-Apr-13 17:58:33

Hi all,
Pebbles sorry to hear your news sad
Ari that sounds so positive best of luck.
Sue sounds like you're in good hands
Lemon I think we'd all feel offended if you left us!!
How are you??
Breezy hope alls ok with you
Hi to anyone I've missed. As for me I feel abit better than the weekend I at least have my new stock of ovitrelle and gonal f so off we go again... Booking a hol too which we all desp need!! Seeing mr s in 3 weeks or so so hope to get a rough timescale of so before ivf
Me x

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