HELP! I'ts all going to pot.........DS3 now 3 1/2 weeks what IS going on???

[fannyannie]

I'm suspecting my latch isn't great but I'm not sure.

Basically DS3 is breastfed (atm!) and although he's never had the best latch in the world he's been happy with what he's getting from me - until yesterday (and a little the day before). Yesterday evening/last night/first thing this morning have been a complete nightmare - he just doesn't seem to be able to latch on at all, then he screams and gets himself really worked up. He's had 4/5 of these screaming sessions and they generally last about 30-60 minutes. Sometimes he (appears) to be trying to latch on, othertimes he's just arching his back/neck away. When he does latch on it's only for a short time and then he falls alseep (probably exhausted).

This morning in desperation I agreed to let DH pop to tesco for some bottles, sterilisers ( on that one - didn't realise we still had the old one in the cupboard so that was an expensive buy), and yes - the dreaded formula.

While I was waiting for the water to cool down to give him a bottle of formula I decided to express some milk (as he'd not had much what with all the screaming/sleeping malarky) and got 4oz in about 5 minutes (I know lack of milk is not an issue last night I had both norks out and practically flooded the bed trying to calm him down LOL). Which I (stress that as I know sometimes they won't take a bottle from mum in the early days) then duly gave to him - he finished the lot and then did suckle for a little while on the breast and fell asleep......I managed to transfer him to his bouncy chair (he's got a 'thing' about his carry cot so didn't even try that LOL) and he's still asleep now (about 1/2 later).

So - I've got enough milk, he evidently likes it , he's been absolutely fine for 3 weeks - so why the sudden change from him???

Any suggestions. I was gutted first thing this morning about the thought of giving him a bottle of ANYTHING (let alone formula - although I happily bottlefed DS2 so possibly just hormones/lack of sleep last night there), but feeling more positive now - but I would like to try and make the breastfeeding work.

[Porpoise]

Fannyannie, can't offer anything like the gold-standard advice lots of others on here can BUT...

Is your milk gushing out, perhaps? With mine, the arching-back thing happened when the milk flow was just too quick for them to handle. Used to express a little off first and that slowed things down.

And re: your latch. Not wanting to make any nork judgements but by the time I'd had my ds3, my breasts had, er, slipped south a little. Found the latch was much better if I cupped my hand under my breast and hoisted meself up a little before latching on.

[fannyannie]

I have tried expressing some not sure it made a lot of difference??? Difficult to tell if it's gushing out or not when it's in their mouth - although they do tend to 'drip' quite quickly without him even being latched on!- perhaps now I've got some bottles to express the milk into I'll do some more - then I can always freeze it.

Think he's just woken up so shall try the nork lifting now..........and await further responses..

[Highlander]

at this age, screaming fits are very common - I suspect it's nothing to do with BF per se. If this is the case, left alone,I suspect the screams will get very much worse before they get better. You're right - he's screaming and then is too exhausted to feed. Remember - BF is very tiring for babies at this stage anyway.

Swaddling, swinging etc may help to settle him before a feed. There was a thread over in health last week (I think it is 'Holy Moly! Is this Colic?!'). I outlined the 5Ss for someone else.

Your baby may be the type that needs swaddling 24/7 for a couple of months. DS1 was like this.

Good Luck

[Highlander]

ooh, and watch out for fast let-down. Express a teeny bit of milk off first and try feeding with your baby 'sitting up'.

Get the LLL BF book!!

[Jojay]

Don't feel bad about your lo having some expressed milk from bottles. My ds was rubbish at bf at first so I expressed and gave him bottles. I always put him on the breast first and within a few weeks he'd got the hang of it. Was nice to know he wouldn't starve in the meantime though - different situation to you I know

[Chirpygirl]

It could be a fast let down or bad positioning cos of boob size change...It is also a common time for a growth spurt so what with him feeding more often and more milk being produced it will be a bit different for a few days.

Have you tried feeding lying down? It helped me as it meant boobs were supported by bed and when DD arched and wriggled she was on the bed so I didn't have to wrestle her!
If the milk is spraying when he coems off then that could be a fast let down so try letting it go into a bottle or muslin and then feed him when it has slowed down a bit.

And well done for getting this far! DD had to have bottles at this age as I had to go out for about 7 hours, I hated it and was terrified it woudl ruin BFIng but I exclusively BF her for over a year so giving a bottle is not the end of the world!

[paulaplumpbottom]

keep trying to breastfeed before you give him a bottle, maybe he is just having a few off days

[tiktok]

This is a quick suggestion only, fannyannie, as I am dashing....but could be extra-generous-supply coupled with mega-fast let down.

[fannyannie]

Chirpy - yes I've tried feeding lying down - he's co-sleeping with me (DH evicted to the spare room since he was born ) and last night he was just as bad as in the evening....

Good thing is the 4oz he got from the bottle - plus the little suckle afterwards seems to have settled him for now - I thought he'd woken up earlier but he hadn't. I'll definitely keep trying the breast - not going to give up without a fight - but now I've had a coffee and a shower I'm feeling more positive about the thought of either mix-feeding or doing a combination of expressed and "on tap" feeding.

Tiktok - I've certainly got a very generous supply - I've been saturating breastpads and most nights the one in my 'spare' boob seems to end up slipping and I wake up with a sopping wet bra .

[dueat44]

Could it be reflux? Someone posted recently that it comes on gradually and peaks at 4m, or thereabouts.

But the great thing is that he is still getting ebm, so the potential is still there for him to latch on and eventually go back to the breast fully. Both my dc were nightmares to latch on - ds NEVER did until 3m, when he just suddenly went for it. He had had ebm in the meantime so no loss of benefits, and he carried on feeding until 14m. My dd is better in that she latched on at 5w, and is happily bf now; again, i gave her ebm in the meantime. Neither seemed phazed to switch between bottle and breast; both infinitely prefer the breast, though.

I would just keep trying, and use ebm as a back-up when you think the feed has not gone well. Giving a bottle of ebm does NOT mean that your bf is doomed in my experience.

[fannyannie]

have no idea if it's reflux - how would I know????

I'll certainly keep trying - I think it partly feels worse this time round because at 3 1/2 weeks I thought we were getting nicely sorted with it..(DS2 was switched to formula at 5 days old as it really went to pot - I couldn't even express anything! and I coped fine with that as I could tell almost from the start it just wasn't happening)

[phdlife]

fanny without vreading entire thread my ds did the same, just went mental at that exact age.

HV suggested infacol which helped (they get windy, doing all that screaming while feeding!), but also said it might just be part of growth spurt. sur enough, normal service resumed in week 5 all by itself. hth

[fannyannie]

Week 5 - that feels ages away - he won't be 4 weeks old until Thursday and it's only Monday today!

I have to pop to town this afternoon so I'll grab some Infacol while I'm there - I'll try anything once LOL.

Ooops - he's awake now.......

[phdlife]

it might've been quicker, my memory's shot! (not getting enough sleep yet) - persist, be patient, he's still learning what to do!

[NK3360719X1133ebb3f2b]

new to this site (as the name picked for me by the machine shows) and not sure if it's the "done thing" to point to other sites, but there's a californian site called pumpstation.com which has all sorts of useful information about getting a decent latch - making a U shape if you're holding madonna style / a C shape if you're holding football style and so on - it helped me hugely

[liath]

Might be fast let down, I had this and now ds is a bit older things have settled down hugely. I started a thread and got helpful advice plus some links to threads tiktok had advised on.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1364&threadid=331406 &stamp=070531215921

The good side is once the baby can manage the let down they feed nice and quickly!

[fannyannie]

talk about ups and downs today......

He woke up at 12.20 and had an attempt at feeding from the breast - not much screaming (hardly any) but he just couldn't do it (we've been absolutely fine up until now - infact he's cried more in the last 18hrs than he has in the 3 weeks since he was born!). Tried him on the formula I'd made up and he had about 1/2 ounce.......put him back on the breast and he seemed to latch on reasonably well and had 1 or 2 minutes there.

He then slept for another 2hrs (partly aided by the fact that I was out and the pram was moving ). He's just woken up again - and almost managed to get latched on well enough to feed, but they were too full - I expressed some (no question about quantity being there - 3 1/2oz in about 6 minutes!) and tried him again on the breast - still wasn't really getting it - so gave him the expressed milk and he's had about 3oz of it.......

[fannyannie]

marvelous this is all I need - he was getting restless a little while ago so I offered him the breast - he couldn't/wouldn't latch on - so I've just been trying to give him some formula - he's had a whole 3/4oz..........so it seems he'll (reluctantly) drink a reasonable amount of expressed milk, but will hardly touch the formula - what do I do???

[tortoiseSHELL]

fannyannie, if it is fast let down and over generous supply, there are some threads on here - tiktok has suggested feeding off one side, but try doing a search on fast let down. Sorry can't do it for you, piano lessons starting in 2 mins! Hope it improves soon!

[fannyannie]

thing is I'm not sure it can be that - as he doesn't really latch on for long enough to get upset about fast let down. (we're talking 1 or 2 seconds before he pulls of).

I've called the NCT Helpline and I think I must have got the same person I called when I was struggling with DS2 at 5 days old......not very helpful.....and it's kind of put me off trying to call any of the others....perhaps it's like most "Baby" services - they just don't exist in decent quality round these parts .

[tiktok]

fannyannie, when a baby gets put off by fast letdown it can change their behaviour at the breast. They don't have to have the fast letdown again - he remembers what happened before, and it is a conditined response to come off, distressed.

This is why keeping him skin to skin and letting him be lured back to the breast will help...he does it in his own time, and you might find it works best when he's a bit sleepy.

Sorry the NCT bf line was not helpful - can you say why she didn't help?

[fannyannie]

really - so it could be a result of fast letdown previously - not somehting that's "now".

I'm still offering him breast before resorting to bottle (although I think I'd better get that pump going again as he doesn't seem impressed with the formula! but will tolerate EBM from one). Should I leave off trying to latch him on for a bit and just keep expressing - or should I persvere with it?

I don't know - maybe it was just me (NCT bf line) she offered a few ideas (which I said I'd already tried) and she was sort of like "oh well don't really know what else to try - just keep at it".....like I say it could just have been me .

However, despite my lack of confidence at their helpline I've joined my local NCT Yahoo Group and posted on it to see if there's anyone close by......had one reply so far which looks hopeful..

[tiktok]

fanny - keep on keeping on But not to fight with him. Try to let him have the opportunity to latch on, and choose a time when he is calm and sleepy, and try positions which minimise the let down. Hope you get more detailed help and maybe a face to face meeting with someone who can see what's happening.

This is the sort of thing that doesn't lend itself to phone help, really, I think - counsellor should have allowed you to feel you were listened to, and been supportive, but it's true that sometimes, one makes suggestions and the mum has tried them already!

[Gingerbear]

fannieanne, DS is 4 weeks tomorrow -same thing almost, faffs and fusses on my left boob - much faster let down on that one. On right boob he is quite happy, not such fast let down that side.
I have found that he feeds much better when half asleep, but need to watch out for regugitated milk - projectile at times.

Try expressing some before feeding?
I empathise with your desparation - I wish I had wise words, but it is all trial and error. . Have you checked kellymom.com?

[fannyannie]

I'm trying not to fight with him in someways it's hard not to - but on the other hand it's hard to fight with him as he's so strong pulling away LOL.

I've just discovered there's a sure start breastfeeding group - with counsellor - on Wednesdays - but sods law it's not on this week as they're closed for staff training - arghhh.