Calling those who have stopped or been tempted to stop b/f before they wanted to...

[twinklemegan]

I have recently posted about this on another thread but I am now curious... has anyone out there given up/been tempted to give up breastfeeding because of the unrealistic way it is sometimes promoted?
eg b/f should be pain free and enjoyable;
any formula (even if desperate) inevitably leading to the end of b/f;
MWs not being allowed to recommend nipple shields even if woman is in excrutiating pain and scared of feeding;
assumptions that every woman has the support to be able to feed baby 24/7 if needed...
you get the idea.
Is it time to inject a bit of reality into the b/f literature and would this help some women to continue with at least some b/f??
Discuss!
PS I'm quite new on MN and I don't want to offend anyone - please be gentle with me!!

[gonfleur]

Never seen promotion like this?

What exactly are your sources?

[twinklemegan]

I don't pretend to be completely objective about this - it has just been the feeling I have had from the leaflets and websites I have read (the standard stuff - NHS leaflets, NCT, etc). I have had many problems with b/f although I am still perservering with it in combination with formula. It is just my impression (and I am not saying I'm right!) that women seem to be discouraged from trying compromise options as opposed to struggling on with full b/f. When it's impossible to carry on exclusively b/f and you feel that a compromise isn't possible you may be tempted to give up altogether - or perhaps that was just me.

[SaintHunkerOfMunker]

I don't think that it's unrealistic for women to think that bfeeding is pain-free - it usually is, given the right support.

It's as enjoyable as you find it - and the enjoyment is found in different ways. There are women on here who don't enjoy bfeeding itself, but do enjoy the fact that they know their baby is getting bmilk. You can't know beforehand how you'll feel about it - some women who thought they'd absolutely hate it love it, and vice versa. There are other women who love bfeeding and are sad when it stops.

I don't agree that any formula means the end of bfeeding, but I think that more should actually be said about the effect of even one bottle of formula on a baby's gut and immune system. I found this very powerful when I was struggling to bfeed DS1 and it gave me the strength to continue.

MWs should know more about bfeeding full stop. Nipple shields can be useful - the problem is when midwives who know nothing about bfeeding recommend them and don't talk about the problems they can cause.

There is support out there on the end of a phone for every woman, and on this website and others for every woman. The bfeeding charity helplines should be publicised more than they are - the NHS should make more of them with their posters. I know this isn't the same as "here, I'll take your older child to the park while you sit on the sofa and bfeed" though. But that's where the television comes in

[gonfleur]

Not felt this myself - but everyone sees things differently.

Parenting choice should be respected. You've decided to mix bf & formula and you should be able to get good info on this.

Can i ask why you've decided to mix feed?

[twinklemegan]

"MWs should know more about bfeeding full stop. Nipple shields can be useful - the problem is when midwives who know nothing about bfeeding recommend them and don't talk about the problems they can cause."
I agree that MWs are often ignorant about b/f and this caused me many problems in itself. But you have just demonstrated my point - nipple shields might cause problems (though they didn't for me) but they might be the only conceivable way that someone can continue with feeding. Thankfully my community MW was very pragmatic and an absolute star and she encouraged me to try anything I needed, even if not ideal, to keep on b/f.
For me a nipple shield was like a safety net between my breast and baby which was psychologically very helpful when I had become terrified of latching him on. I later became aware that baby can refuse breast without shield, shields can lead to reduced milk supply, etc. Had all this been said to me at the time I would probably not have used them and tried to carry on regardless, and I know I would have ended up giving up b/f altogether. Once my nipples had healed and I had got over the psychological hurdle I was then in a position to consider the downside and attempt to wean DS and myself off the shield, which I did. But even if I had carried on using the shields and my milk supply had dropped off because of this, that would still have been a few more weeks of breastmilk that DS would not otherwise have had.
(am going to bed now or I'll have to resort to matchsticks!)

[SaintHunkerOfMunker]

But had your supply dropped, had you got mastitis, etc, etc - you'd have been cursing the ill-informed midwife who didn't tell you this at the time - her pragmatism might not have been what you needed.

[tiktok]

twinkle, I think we're gonna need more evidence than a 'feeling' you have got from leaflets and websites....like gonfleur, I don't recognise the promotion you describe - not one of the phrases you say is part of unrealistic promotion is familiar to me. Where have you got the idea that m/ws are not allowed to recommend nipple shields? they hand them out like sweets in some places! And where did you get 'the feeling' any formula is going to lead to the end of bf?

Evidence, I think, please

[twinklemegan]

I had no choice in the end gonfleur. I had been adamantly against formula before! As I have said elsewhere on MN, it had taken 4 years to conceive DS and I was having such a hard time with b/f that it was ruining my time with him. DH couldn't bear to see me in pain all the time, yelling at DS out of frustration. After one night with DS screaming for three hours in one room and me upstairs crying my eyes out he made me give him a bottle. I do sometimes regret this, and I still feel guilty about it, but mixed feeding is working for us - it is now nearly 12 weeks on.
The pain was initially from cracked nipples at which point I started using nipple shields. But even after they healed I was still getting horrendous pain throughout every single feed. My latch was checked several times and found to be absolutely fine. As well as the pain, DS was also very difficult to feed - it often took two of us to hold his arms so I could get him latched on.
I did, and still do, express milk to give with a bottle but I wasn't getting enough to make a real difference. Giving formula as well as enabled me to give my breasts a rest when needed and feeding is now, finally, pain free. But it was excrutiatingly painful for 12 weeks solid and I just couldn't deal with that after everything I'd been through before.

[Lucy1977]

Hunker - do you have a link or book recommendation about "but I think that more should actually be said about the effect of even one bottle of formula on a baby's gut and immune system."

Is this well known? I had no idea at all.

Thanks

Lucy

[twickersmum]

Twinklemegan
get yourself the book "What to expect when you're breastfeeding and what if you can't" it is absolutely brilliant, realistic and even tells you when it is time to call it a day!
you can get it at www.mamatoto.co.uk use code KF1ZZ140 for free delivery.

[twinklemegan]

Right, I?m taking the opportunity whilst LO is asleep for a while. I haven?t time to dig around to find every example of what I?m talking about, but here?s a few that are to hand..

1. NCT Leaflet (repeated several times) ? ?it?s easy when you get the knack?. Implication ? if you?re not finding it easy you haven?t got the knack yet ie it?s your fault. That may be, but your baby might be a difficult feeder, there may be a physical problem, etc. It may take weeks or even months for mother and baby to ?get the knack? and/or resolve any problems. I?m sure I can?t be the only woman out there who couldn?t bear to leave my baby hungry and crying whilst we worked on getting the knack.
   
   
2. NCT Leaflet ? ?feed day and night whenever and for as long as baby wants?. When you are recovering from a traumatic birth and completely exhausted this may not be practical, especially when b/f is neither relaxing nor painless.
   
   
3. ?Breastfeeding Your Baby? (NCT book) ? to paraphrase, introducing formula due to difficulties in b/f may lead to the end of b/f completely ? followed by lots of examples of this. This may well be true, (probably only if the cause of the b/f problems is still not ever resolved) but if the only other alternative is stopping b/f immediately, surely mixing the two is better? And as I said I?ve been mixed feeding for 3 months and things are still fine ? my body produces milk when it is needed. It gives you some time out to resolve the problems without a screaming, hungry baby to contend with.
   
   
4. Many postings on Mumsnet.
   
   
5. My midwife told me they are not supposed to mention or recommend nipple shields.
   
   I don?t expect you all to agree with me on this ? as with everything, your own experience tends to colour your perception of things. In the cold light of day I can see things differently, but when I was at my lowest ebb some of the things I read made me feel utterly worthless and a crap mother. And I?m sure I can?t be the only one.
   
   Please be clear, I am NOT anti-breastfeeding ? far from it. I think more people should be doing it. But I recognise that not everyone can or wants to exclusively breastfeed and I think the ?all or nothing? approach can put people off doing it at all. Nature might have intended all women to breastfeed, but Nature can also be very cruel. Mankind has the technical ability to help women who?s babies might very well have died otherwise, and I just don?t think we should be made to feel like we have failed for accepting this help.

[edam]

I was absolutely desperate to give up b/f in the early days when ds and I were struggling with poor latch. I had cracked nipples and mastitis and every feed was agony - used to make my toes curl. I cried, a lot.

Luckily I had a supportive dh, a brilliant HV, a fab breastfeeding counsellor and all my other new mummy friends were b/f.

We got through it because of that support and because I was so bloody minded - dh has asthma and eczema and I desperately wanted to give him the best chance of avoiding them himself.

What also helped me through was sending dh out to buy a steriliser, bottles and formula. Every feed I'd think 'right, I CAN give a bottle at the next one, I'll just do this one feed' so got through it one feed at a time, knowing there was an alternative at hand.

I don't think the literature made me feel bad at all. It just made me even more determined because I could see how important b/f was. What I needed was more practical help with positioning. The NHS should ensure every midwife and HV is properly trained in b/f so they know what they are talking about and are able to offer that help. And it should use expert PR people - the same people mega corporations would use - to design literature that is actually helpful while not making women who ff feel bad. I think some people would still be very sensitive on the topic because it is so emotional - it's not just about food, is it. But at least they'd have done everything they could to get the message across as delicately as they can.

As for mixed feeding, it's a fact that introduced early on it can diminish your supply and mean you have to give up sooner than you planned. It's important that people know that.

I did mix feed after about four weeks - just so I got some relief from b/f and dh could do one of the night feeds. It worked for us, thank heavens. I carried on b/f for seven months with one bottle a day.

[purpleluce]

Hi twinkle

I mixed fed dd1 and it worked for me. The reasons were similar excrutiating pain associated with cracked nips (worse than childbirth!) mastitis etc. I used very thin silicon nipple shields and ibuprofen to get through that stage.

At 10 days in, I was going mental with the pain and stress and close to giving up and hubby gave some formula (which I felt was very unsupportive at time ...but do think I had been a little indoctrinated by nct)

My baby used to want to feed non stop from about 3.30pm till about 6 pm and that is when your milk is least satisfying and that just exacerbated the nip abuse and pain. So dh started giving a bottle of formula at 7.00 pm which knocked baby out for about 6-7 hours (and allowed me an evening, a couple of g+t's and some sanity) and I breast fed the rest of the time.

I think it is important to bf as much as possible in the first 6 weeks to get your supply established but then you have to find a happy medium. The baby whisperer states that to get the immunity benefits (which is certainly one of the main reasons for breast feeding for me) babies only need 3oz per day.

Therefore by my reckoning some formula here and their if it works is an ok solution - as long as you get one that suits your baby. I do think there are risks of it being a bit of a slippery slope trying to introduce too many formula feeds before your supply is established though as it takes some commitment to get through the pain barrier in my experience

Anyway am 40+4 with number 2 so will see how I go this time but fully intend to go the same route

[wools]

Hi Twinkle,

I agree with Purpleluce. I am breastfeeding my 2 week old dd at the moment but I do give her a bottle of formula occasionally as I find it quite painful and just having a break here and there spurs me on. I couldn't breast feed either of my 2 ds before, neither would latch on, so I feel I'm really achieving something in that she has 5 out of 6 feeds on the breast and is getting all the antibodies etc.

[moondog]

Hi Twinkle
You raise some intersting points.
Yes,breastfeeding can be hard (initially) and demanding and I for one,suffered and struggles a great deal through the early days (including a similar struggle with nipple shields.)

However lots of things are hard in life.Getting pregnant can be hard,giving birth is damned hard,returning to a decent shape and size is difficults and my MSc is bloody impossible.

It sounds to me as if you want someone to give you 'permission' for mixed feeding.

The only person who can do that is you.

I'm with Hunker though-more needs to be spelt out explicitly re damaging effects of formula on gut.

It is called 'informed choice'.

[twinklemegan]

So did either of you find the literature/advice received unsupportive of that approach? For me, comments like that of SaintHunker that just one formula feed can be harmful made me inclined to think that all the perserverance in the world wouldn't be worth it if I couldn't do it exclusively. I'm happy to say I got over that and came to the conclusion that some is better than none, but I wondered if other people had in fact given up. BTW, I too was furious with DH for suggesting formula but in hindsight I know it was because he loves me and couldn't stand seeing me suffering.

[moondog]

'SaintHunker's' remark isn't just something she thought up Twinkle.
It is true!!

Formula companies want you to believe formula does no harm,and spend millions pushing this message.

What a curious mindset to contemplate giving up breastfeeding completely when confronted by some difficult truths......

Have you looked in the breastfeeding archives on here?

There is a lot of lively debate you may find interesting.

[moondog]

(I was tempted to give up hundreds of times btw...)

[twinklemegan]

Yes Moondog, you're probably right - I feel guilty for not b/f exclusively even though I know I couldn't. But that doesn't change my underlying question - should there be more encouragement to try at least partial b/f rather than all or nothing? And that is the last time I will Labour that point, I promise!

[twinklemegan]

And I would be the first to admit that my mindset was somewhat curious at the time!

[moondog]

Oh deffo agree that partial better than nowt.
Going out now,but will check this later.

[tiktok]

twinkle, thanks for posting examples....you're gonna think I am splitting hairs, here, but none of the examples you give back up your original post at all.

The statements you quote are indeed generally true - it is true that, generally, breastfeeding takes some practice at first, and that, generally, once this has been done breastfeeding becomes easy. How that translates as 'it is your fault' if it doesn't work out comes from you, not the words. And it comes from you because breastfeeding is an emotional 'thing' - there is a ton of stuff from NCT that focusses in detail on specific problems, for those who need information and help about them.

It is also the case that breastfeeding gets off to a good start when the baby is fed day and night for as long as the baby wants - that's biology, not ideology. You will find NCT addresses the issues that arise from this - specifically, the need for a mother to have support and help in other areas of her life to make this frequent feeding possible.

It is also the case that the introduction of formula can lead to the end of breastfeeding - it does not say this is 'inevitable' but any formula makes this more likely. Mothers need to know this. There are often threads on Mumsnet outlining the way formula, introduced as a top up or supplement, starts to replace breastfeeding, leading to no breastfeeding at all. A current thread says 'no one told me this would happen and now I want to save my breastfeeding'. NCT has a factsheet called 'bottles for breastfed babies' which deals with this honestly, but also outlines how the risks of formula impacting on breastfeeding can be reduced.

I can't comment on 'many postings on Mumsnet' but these are not an official or published source of information - they're people's own individual experiences as well as people talking about things and sometimes getting them wrong

Your midwife is not speaking for all midwives. She's just reporting poor practice - totally ruling out nipple shields is just as bad as giving them to every mother who complains of difficulty latching or sore nipples.

You had a really difficult experience and you have mixed feelings about it - it's very hard for mothers who are having a bad time to read positive stuff about bf and yes, it can make them feel as if they are bad mothers.

I don't know the answer to that, really....it is surely not right to withhold information that could help people wanting to breastfeed in case someone else at a low point reads it. The good thing is that in time, most women stop feeling personally 'got at' and, like you, get the thing into perspective more clearly.

[purpleluce]

This is based on logic not evidence (not sure that it is available) Lots of babies are formula fed and thrive, probably including many of us. Logically, your breast milk is always going to be the best food for the baby and the younger they are the more immature their guts so the less ideal formula is.

However, if you find a formula that suits your baby or just find one and stick to it, rather than chopping and changing then the baby's digestive system will get used to it as many are bottle fed perfectly happily from birth and dont even have the option of breast milk - certainly the UK stats are something like 50% are exclusively formula fed at 6 weeks.
So,if you manage to maintain breastfeeding and are giving formula as well for whatever reason at 6 weeks, then you are giving baby some additional antibodies which has to be good and better than giving up completely!
(Incidently, I think 6 weeks is when you start to get payback by bfing becoming easier than formula if you have stuck with it enough to get established)

I know there are some people who believe you have to be exclusive about bfeeding, does that mean they won't use infacol, calpol or Kamilosan/lanisoh in that time of exclusivity and what about immunisations?

At the end of the day, we all have to be pragmatic about what we introduce into our babies bodies and give ourselves a break. Being a bfing mum is hard enough Each to their own of course though

[twinklemegan]

Best of luck with no. 2 Purpleluce!!

[amijee]

Twinkle -

I know where you are coming from - and agree with you up to a point. Although I am exclusively breast feeding my 14 week old ds I have been thru a lot of emotions about it - even though it's not been complicated for me - it's still bloody hard work!!

Although I realise that introducing formula can affect milk supply, I feel that mum's net does a lot of scaremongering and there are not enough postings from mums who are successfully doing both ( and I know lots of them!)

I will be trying to mix feed when I go back to work - if it affects supply, i accept that I will go on formula alone.

Well done for getting this far with all your probs - you deserve a pat on the back.