Can I trust my breasts to provide enough?

[oranges]

Hi,
I had a baby boy 4 weeks ago - tried to breastfeed, but at 10 days he's lost 22 per cent of his bodyweight and had to go back into hospital, as he had not been latching onpreperly and idiot that I am, I had not realised. He was fed a mix of formula and expressed breastmilk, and has now learnt to suck properly, so I am breastfeeding, but with a few bottles of formula too, on advice of hv. His weight has gone back up, but I don't know if I should trust by breasts to provide him with enough food. At the moment, there seems to be enough milk. But I'm scared my milk will dry up soon if I continue with the formula too long. I do express sometimes, but hate it. Any advice? Thank you?

[FrayedKnot]

oranges sorry you have had this experience, as it must have been very worrying for you. But you are NOT an idiot for not knowing that your DS had problems with his latch!! How would you know?!

I am not a bf counsellor but I would say that teh more formula you give your son, the less bm you will produce.

There are probably lots of ways for you & your DS to increase your milk production, and it would be good if you could speak to a bf counsellor who can help you through this. Have you looked into this? Your HV should have contact details, or your local branch of NCT, or LLL?

It's great that your DS has regained his weight, and that he is feeding well. I can't see any reason why you couldn;t revert to fully bf him, if that's what you want.

[misdee]

your body will provide enough. there is always milk there. just put the baby to the breast each feed and slowly decrease formula. it can be done. there are more people better at this than me, i'm sure they will be along shortly with more advise.

[SoupDragon]

Trust your breasts :)

DS1 lost about 2lbs from his birthweight because of poor feeding technique (and I didn't realise either!) but we got there in the end and he piled on weight from breast alone.

There's something you can buy over the counter which I keep thinking of as Dom Perignon which has the effect of boosting your milk supply. Someone will nkow the proper name!

[veNivIDiViCkiqV]

Agree with everyone else, the more you b/feed the more milk you will produce.

It can be done, some other posters have done it successfully iirc

[SoupDragon]

Look \link{http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=1364&threadid=147384&stamp=060223135021\here}

[oranges]

lol Dom Perignon sounds like an excellent idea. I keep thinking bf will be okay, then remember him starving, and being fed through a tube down his nose again, and panic. And turn to formula. I do want to bf, at least for a while longer. He looks so much happier drinking it!

[Tatties]

I am not a bfc either but would echo FrayedKnot and Misdee, it's all about supply and demand. The more you feed the more you will produce.
Let your ds feed as often as he wants and don't restrict the duration of feeds. Night feeds are also really important for maintaining your supply. You are not an idiot, Oranges. Well done for sticking at it this far despite problems

[Enid]

trust your breasts! they were doing it right first time, you weren't to know about the latch.

Ditch the formula over a few weeks and just feed feed feed

[rosiemb]

agree with trying to build the breastfeeding back up - as long as that is what you want to do. i had an awful time when I was breastfeeding - it was constant, and I mean constant. it would have helped me greatly if someone had just said ONCE that it was not compulsory. i know i would have kept going, but just not felt like such a failure. i am very familiar with the feeling like an idiot syndrome - and it's only when you are out the other side that you relaise just how brilliant you actually were to have kept going under all the pressure!
good luck - whatever you decide to do!

[foundintranslation]

You should be feeding as frequently as possible - this may mean very frequently indeed for a while, but milk production works on supply and demand. Start cutting out a bottle of formula at a time - how many are you giving per day? Expressing might be necessary to stimulate supply if ds does not want to feed as frequently or if he sleerps for long periods at night.
Remember that his weight gain may slow again once you are off the formula, but thias is normal. www.kellymom.com has quite detailed information about weight gain in bf babies.
I went from mixed feeding to full bf at 4 weeks (different situation to yours), so it can be done. I know how scary it is dropping the bottles, though. We went on to exclusively bf until 6 1/2 months and he is nearly a year now and still bf. :)
Keep posting for support if you need it - I'll watch out for you. Good luck!

[SoupDragon]

Ah, but you know wht to look out for now. It won't get the same stage again. Once we got it sorted with DS1 he would pile on up to 1lb per week. Amazing. You can do it :)

Chat to a BFCounsellor.

how many bottles is he having? Gradually drop one at a time in favour of breastfeeding (if that's what you want). He may want to feed more often whilst your supply builds up.

[Twiga]

Oranges, sorry to hear you've had probs - you're doing great to have stuck with it, you'll be fine. You might find this site helpful for info and stuff \link{http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/index.html\Kellymom}
Would echo what's already been said, just keep going, now you've got the latch issue sorted it's a supply and demand thing. It must have been really scarey to have your little one in hospital and to see him tube fed. It's easy to say I know but try not to worry, you've got his weight back up and it sounds like you're doing great. All the very best and enjoy!

[oranges]

I give two or three bottles of formula in 24 hours, though bf the night feeds. He never sleeps for more than about 2.5 hours, after either bf or bottle, but I do think he poos more after formula. There is always milk left in my breasts after he finishes feeding (he comes off on his own after about 15-20 mins) which makes me worry about if he gets enough. Sometimes i can rouse him for another go, but usually not.
Thanks for the kind words. Though I still feel lile an idiot.

[foundintranslation]

The breasts never get completely 'empty', oranges - don't worry about that. Glad you're doing night feeds. How often is ds feeding? You need at least 8-12 feeds in 24 hours in the 'building up supply' stage (I'd veer more towards 12 in your situation).
You're certainly not an idiot :) - with lack of support, bf can be very difficult indeed in the early weeks - I and many other MNers are testament to that!

[Twiga]

Oranges the coming off on his own is a good sign, if he doesn't want anymore when you rouse him then he's had enough - don't worry too much about length of time - some babies feed very quickly, others (like my dd) would stay put all day given half a chance !

[tiktok]

Oranges, any mother whose baby has lost this amount of wait has been totally failed by the people whose job it was to check everything was fine. These things do not happen overnight. My guess is your baby was not latching from day 1, and you were told 'everything's fine' by poorly-trained people who don't know what to look for. I also guess he was not pooing very much, if at all - a baby who's not producing several soft yellow poos by day 5-6 at the latest is almost certainly not getting enough at the top end, and if no one explained this to you, it is not your fault, but theirs.

A bad experience like this really knocks a mother's confidence, and it's not surprising you feel the way you do.

If you continue giving 2-3 bottles a day you will not make enough breastmilk - that's just a biological fact. This is too much formula at this stage, and you need to actively cut down on the amount he's getting - you could make those formula feeds smaller, that would be one way; or you could give them as a top up only, maybe no more than once or twice a day. Every time your baby twitches, put him on the breast! You won't instantly make up the shortfall of 2-3 formula feeds, but you will in a just a few days.

The rest of the info on this thread about non-empty breasts and freq feeding and so on is spot on.

Good luck! And think about writing to the maternity unit and the HVs and complaining about your poor support at the beginning.

[tiktok]

wait = weight

:)

[SoupDragon]

"He never sleeps for more than about 2.5 hours, after either bf or bottle" Sadly that's about right!! :o I always aim to feed DD around every 3 hours during the day (she's 12 weeks). DSs used to feed this often too.

As has been said, breasts aren't ever really empty but I always took "empty" to mean that my breasts had gone from hard to really soft and floppy and milk didn't actually spurt out if I squeezed behind the nipple after feeding (don't do this in public though :o). After a while you get to know when to assume your baby has fed enough on one side and if your DS is coming off by himself after 15-20 minutes and won't take any more, chances are he's had enough.

[oliveoil]

dd1 used to feed for about 10 or 15 mins every 2 hours. Only ever wanted one side.

dd2 used to be permanently attached (or so it seemed), and wanted both sides, they all feed differently, please don't clock watch or try to, routines do not work imo at this early stage.

I remember dd1 used to throw up after every feed and I sobbed to the midwife that she didn't like my milk but when she weighed her, she had put on 1lb. It gets in there somehow.

[sweetkitty]

hi oranges just wanted to say you are doing a great job so far and there is some great advice on this thread.

My DD1 was jaundiced at birth so was too sleepy to latch and feed so this made the jaundice worse, vicious cycle really. She was readmitted to hospital given one bottle of formula (it was either that or tube feeding) then after that I expressed for her but kept offering her the breast until she got the idea, I think it was only my sheer bloody mindedness that meant we weren't bottle feeding but I can see how your confidence could take an awful bashing especially when HVs are saying better off with a bottle (as mine were). Anyway after a shaky start I BF her for a year, she was always a spped feeder, 10 mins one side and never cried for food, I had to remember to offer her a boob every 3 hours and she was sleeping from 11-6am from 6 weeks old.

DD2 however completely different, she came out looking for a boob and hasn't stopped, she's a big hungry girl and sometimes I think how can I produce enough milk to satisfy her? She's steadily put weight and is on the 91st centile (her sister was on the 9th for comparison) she feeds every 2-3 hours and will only go 4 hours at night without a feed (shes nearly 14 weeks now) I'm exhausted with all the feeding and having a toddler to look after too.

Would echo the hang on in there advice, just keep feeding and feeding!

[oranges]

tiktok - yes only the third midwife who checked him on day 10 spotted the problem. The first said all was fine, and the second, who came on day 6, forgot her scales so he could not be weighed, told me the jaundice was normal and when I said he had not done a yellow poo at all, said that was normal too, and I should not worry that he was falling asleep after 2 mins at the breast. I shudder now to think I thought all that was acceptable advice, but I had a 3rd degree tear and was so sleep deprived I could not think straight. He would be on formula totally if it were not for a fantastic paediatric nurse at the ward, who told me to express and feed him, and organised a bf counsellor for me before he was discharged.

I've tried breast only today, and he seems as contented and gurgling as ever, so I'll see if that can continue.

[tiktok]

Oranges....that is so sad, and even sadder that you asked the right questions and got such terrible information back. No yellow poo on day 6 is a major red flag, and coupled with jaundice and a baby who drops off to sleep after 2 minutes is a clear sign all is not well. The midwife who tended to you that day is actually practising dangerously - I don't think that's putting it too strongly.

When you feel able to, maybe you could write a letter explaining all this, and praising the nurse who helped you in the end.

[SoupDragon]

"he seems as contented and gurgling as ever" Ahhhhh :) You can't get a better sign IMO :)

[RedZuleika]

Sorry to hear about your problems. Bfeeding is bloody hard work in the beginning.

Someone else has mentioned taking to your bed for a couple of days with your baby and putting him to the breast as much as possible. Having lots of skin-to-skin is supposed to stimulate your supply. I know that some people have said that they can express more after a bath - so perhaps bathing with your baby would stimulate your milk on two counts...?