I was away but read it on holiday too

I really enjoyed it!!!

sorry - missed the discussion as was away on hols. took the book with me though! i absolutely loved it and completely agree about the tight writing and dialogue. some brilliant phrases. tis my favourite book so far too. was such a relief to read something that wasn't upsetting.

i'm about to vote for this month - i'll be the person who goes for the most upbeat book!

Late to the discussion, I did pick up the book in the library wanting to read it but didn't get to it sooner. Actually I've a few pages to read properly but have looked at the end anyway (I'm an impatient reader and often glance at the story and then I can go back and enjoy the how it gets there more slowly).

I didn't think Frances was going to "end up" with the vicar but that the two women found each other more amenable housemates than their husbands. It seems that Jay's role is to open up other possibilities, as she's not hooked on the family in the way that Frances' husband is, she can be dispassionate.

hi beforesunrise, sorry its taken me a while to get back - I'm also juggling 4 week old and a 2 year old, its like a tennis match, running to and fro between them.

I thought Claudia was awful, but I did believe in her - it seemed to me that we'd met the family at climax point, where all of their behaviour and character had devloped to such an extent that it couldn't go on any longer. So her extreme reactions and demands seemed to be the apex of years of family life, and then it all comes crashing down.

I think Claudia genuinely believed she was holding the family together by insisting on keeping up appearances - I don't think she realised how selfish it is to try and mould a family into a shape that you feel appropriate. Weirdly, although i didn't like her at all, I did feel a certain amound of respect for her, only because she wanted the best. She was mistaken, but at least she cared.

I agree with you about Norman's love of Frances playing a part. I also read that the author believes birth order to be highly important in developement of character and relatioships - so perhaps she was making a point that the second/middle child often gets overlooked/misunderstood? (Guilt settling in here as I realise we have taken no photos of our 4 week old, and have 6 albums worth of the 2 year old)

Have you got a question you'd like to put to the author? I'm emailing her now...

Hope you can join us for June's book - will announce the result on thursday.

have already voted :-) and really hope to join in.

anyway, i was wondering if i am the only one who thought Claudia was a monster? and borderline unbelievable? i don't quite believe that a mother can be so consistently awful to her children out of sheer narcissism- and deliberately try to screw up their lives for her own little satisfaction?

i thought her relationship with frances was so horrid- perhaps though it's because frances is the only one of her children who actually stands up to her and because Norman loves her so much (whereas he doesn't seem to care about the others, whcih i also found odd).

Hi beforesunrise - add away by all means, also look at June book of the month in book club topic and vote for nest months book.

hi, i have never joined these discussions- would love to in the future...

last night i couldnt log in as i am currently juggling a 12 days old baby girl with her insomniac and fairly jealous 2yo sister but have read this book (the day before giving birth to dd2!) and would have loved the chance to chat about it.

can i still post my impressions/thoughts?

thanks!

sorry Justine but that's too funny!

Ahem - that was my mum posting in my name on my computer by the way. I haven't read the book but she says I must - she loved it.

(note to self to LOG OUT in future)

Thank you all for this bookclub chat.

I will now be interested in the Orange prize too.

Will be voting for the June book.

Goodnight all

Pleasure all mine - I'm so glad it won our vote. I'm giving it to my sisters for sure (hope they don't think I'm making any sort of point)...

I am hoping she wins too! For once I am actually interested in the Orange prize (bad thing to admit not being interested before perhaps) so thanks for making this a bookclub read Tilly

Thank you Tilly, I would agree with being a favourite and madly passing around friends at home.

Will pass on the questions and post answers up here early next week - thanks everyone.

Its very short but just in case you want to hear her voice, here is the author talking about the book on Meet the Author - in place of having her live...

I think this has been my favourite bookclub read so far, here's hoping she wins the Orange Prize on June 4th.

And finally, our June Book of the Month poll is ready to go - there are four men up for grabs this time and you've got until Thursday 5th June to vote.

My question would be - who is the character that the author most identifies with, and why?

I also imagine that Claudia was pretty shook up that her rocks were getting indpendent lives from her, Frances leaving Jonathan,Lwo mivng in with Helen and Norman having her book published, she wasn't the center of ehr world anymore.

I thought the ending was absolutely 50/50 - I didn't have any clue about whether she would survive or not.

If pushed, I think she probably does survive and have surgery and is a more mellow character but essentially remains the same slightly overbearing control freak.

(I love the fact that she 'cannot shake the feeling there are other things she should be doing' when she reaches for the paper to write her family love letters. That touch made it completely in character and realistic)

I think that would be my question.

What happened to claudia the next day?

I really enjoyed this book and was disappointed that it ended.

I'm going to retire now, but my question to the author is "why did no-one have a mobile phone?" Even I had one in 2001, one of last to get one. I thought it unlikely that busy Claudia and the hip younger children didn't have one. Given the secrets kept they would have been very useful.

Did she intentionally have a big divide in the family, i.e. Norman, Leo and Frances who were the quiet dutiful side versus Claudai, Simeon and ? who were the buterflies of the family? is my question

What does everyone think the ending was?

Did Claudia die or was she given more time?

I like to think that she was given more time, and that life carried on as usual...

And Simeon was the most obnoxious person going.

I'm going to retire now, but my question to the author is "Why did no-one have mobile phones?" Even I had one in 2001, and I found it unlikely that busy Claudia or the hip younger children didn't have them. Given most of them were hiding things, mobiles would have been very useful.

By the way, has everyone got questions they'd like to ask the author? I'm going to email her tomorrow with our list...

billybass, yes, I think she did truly love Norman. the last part was very moving, when Norman says 'We did our best, we weren't pefect but we couldn't have done anything else' and she agrees with him 'quietly into his neck' - she admits that they were good enough, rather than being perfect.

Tilly - i agree that the book is beautifully written

i think Claudia didn't tell anyone about her illness because it would feel like another bit of control that she'd lost

I don't think she did do the childcare tghat was what Norman did, and the children were brought up to do everything to make Claudia look good, sorry can' remember the younger daughters name but I remember her going on we must pulkl together for Claudia.

by the way, lemurtamer, I really liked that 'naked excpet for her clothes' phrase too. I think the language is very succinct - there is never a spare word. Its all very tight. All the dialogue sounds completely believeable, which is usally so hard to achieve.

I thought it was sweet in that her intention was to shield norman of the worry. I thought that was a touching thing to do and did it prove that she really did love them underneath?

I thought Norman was touching too. Much more like my dad than any of the other charactrs were like any of my family, iyswim.

What did you think of Claudia's decision not to tell anyone about her illness? Courageous? Or in denial?

Yeah we do have female rabbis and they do tend to be well known.As I am Jewish it was nice to see the utter madness of immigrant families .

If families have undergone the trauma of fleeing in the past does this send the subsequent family a bit do lally when they settle?

I loved the book but really couldn't get to grips with Claudia. IU am not Jewish but know something of Jewish mothers and I somehow couldn't reconcile to the fact of her being a Rabbi. How common is it for a woman to be a Rabbi and how did she manage that and look after the four children - there is no mebntion of any chilcare!

i loved Norman's portrayal as 'everydad' - ie the dad from that generation who doesn't really know how to deal with the bizarre-ness of his family, and just can't deal with emotions. a much more realistic dad than the dads in the last two book club books - atticus & james

I thought claudias reaction to frances when she came to pick up baby max was very un-motherly too.The contrast with Normans reaction to his lost daughter was striking

tilly - i think the irrestible thing about claudia must be her position as a powerful figure in the community. think of all those frankly unattractive politicians who have affairs - its not looks, its the charisma of power... what's intersting and unusual here is that the powerful person is a woman, which you don't often see.
i didn't really like claudia either
(apols for lack of capitals - am typing one handed!)

Agree about Norman, although don't you think Claudia probably was the way she was becuase everyone treated her that way? They never stood up to her, so she believed that everyone was happy.

I think Claudia lost me at the beginning because her reaction to leo's affair was 'it makes me look crap' rather than 'I'm worried whether you're doing the right thing'. Its a rpofoundly un-motherly thing to think, isn't it?

And do we think that everyone really 'blames the mother' for her son bolting at the altar?

Norman really came to life towards the end. I thought the author captured Leo's passion very well, for example Helen sitting next to him at the Seder "absolutely naked but for her clothes".

I also felt sorry for Norman, his role according to Claudia was that of back up her support system and the fact that he was so scared of telling her about his success, says an awful lot about her controlling nature. She was definitely a force to be reckoned with.

I really liked sim though. He at least did his own thing in his own way.

Yes, i found Claudia cold. I found her convincing as a character apart from this 'irresistible' thing tht keeps everyone enthralled. Couldn't see what was so attractive about her really.

sophiewd, I read a review somewhere that says Frances is suffering from PND - but that she realises her feelings towards her husband are worse than those towards her baby so she knows she has to leave him instead. He was truly dreadful, wasn't he - a lot of the things he said made me laugh out loud.

I liked Frances but I wasn't 100% convinced about her lesbian conversion, and really not convinced she was going to end up with the vicar. I liked her conversion to someone who knew their own mind, especially her retreat to the funny hotel with copies of Pride and Prejudice and all her comfort reading.

Control freaks are a bit fragile though, maybe her family knew that Claudia wasn't that strong?

I thought Claudia was really cold. Did everyone else feel this?

I really enjoyed the book, though didn't find Claudia or the two younger children very convincing, I don't know if it was because they were unpleasant, but I felt they were rather caricatures.

I'm a youngest and i'm HUGELY responsible...but I do get treated like a baby by the rest of the family, even when i have two of my own. That's what I loved aobut this book, that sense of recognition even though the family is extreme.

The two youngest were dreadful, so awful that I wondered how on earth the family had got that far without combusting. It feels like that's Claudia's fault but then where was Norman?

Claudia was overwhelming, was that because of her own sense of survival, or a genuine extrovert love of food/family/giving, or was she just a bit of a control freak? Did her fame bamboozle her children - would they have been the same to her if she wasn't famous and successful?

I felt so sorry for Frances, 'arranged marriage' and thought that she was suffering badly from PND, but could be mistaken.

Agree with you strawberry lace, my younger sister gets away with murder, but I have always been expected to tow the line.

Hello everyone.I really loved the book,I really warmed to Frances and the others but I also was maddened by them in equal measure.

Hello!
I totally agree about your outward perfection/inner mess point Tilly. And was symptomatic of Claudia's need to control everything.
I also thought it was such an accurate portrayal of what's expected of children in birth order - ie the eldest are supposed to be reliable, whilst the youngest get away with everything! Apologies to all youngest children everywhere, but its definitely how things have turned out in my family!

How are you getting on Tilly?

I am not sure how sympathetic I can be towards Claudia as she was so controlling and her younger 2 were just awful. I loved the book and again the back cover blurb did not do it justice.

Hi all
Hurrying to put my thoughts up here while baby is not feeding...

I thought the book did a brilliant job of being very warm but also sharp and observant. I felt affectionate towards all the characters even with their faults and the big mess they were making of their family life.

I wondered if its ever in a family's interests to try and hide your true feelings, or whether honesty is always the best policy. Do you have to be more brutally honest with your family than with anyone else?

Claudia is very powerful yet I still couldn't quite understand why everyone remained in her thrall. Is her behaviour what they call passive-aggressive?

The tension between the outward perfection of the family and the inner mess was very clever - i think mothers do that all the time, wanting to show the best face to the world and unable to let the guard down.

I found this Guardian interview quite interesting, if anyone fancies reading it...

I think it might be better to wait until we've had our discussion and send questions afterwards, as Cahrlotte is off to France today and won't be back till next WEdnesday. So keep thinking, and we'll compile a list on Tuesday evening. Looking forward to seeing you all then.

And in case you were wondering what has happened to June's poll, I'm just having a few tecchie problems - should have it ready by tomorrow...

Having just finished the book, I was wondering how much of the emotional difficulties encountered by the characters was down to the setting (a religious home), and how much was down to human nature and behaviour and could occur in any household with a strong/domineering mother? <phew>

looking forward to the discussion and will try and think of some questions. Congrats on your new baby Tilly - those are both fab names, esp as from my fave book and fave films! Hope you can decide...

My vote is for Atticus, will think of some questions.

Congratulations Tilly on your new baby son.

the book-lovers will go with Atticus, the film-goers Harrison.

Do a poll anyway, see what the verdict is

Hi squonk, fingers crossed you make it but no worries if not - would be great if you could pop a question or two up sometime next week and I'll send on to author.

All well with me - I'm having a lovely time of it second time round, but then I'm in the sun-packed countryside at my in-laws beautiful house and my husband still on paternity leave so reality hasn't exactly bitten just yet. We go back to town on Tuesday and then its just me and two small ones from dawn till dusk. Thank God there's another Bank Holiday coming up.

We've managed to leave our camera (plus every other useful item) back in London but pic coming as soon as we're back...

The name debate still rages. Its either Atticus or Harrison, but not sure which. Reckon I can do a Mumsnet Poll?

hi tilly.

Just started the book last night, so I will have finished it by next Tuesday.

But... I am travelling down to my mum's on the Tuesday so I may not make it for the discussion (hopefully I won't still be stuck on the blardy motorway again, but you never know)

How are you? congratulations on the birth of your little boy. Do we get to see a picture?

This is the thread to come to for May Book of the Month discussion night, where we'll be getting to grips with Orange Prize shortlister When WE Were Bad by Charlotte Mendelson.

Charlotte can't join us on the night due to a prior engagement, but she is very happy to answers our questions in advance. Can everyone post their questions up here and I'll send on to Charlotte on Thursday 23rd May. Then I'll put all her answers up on Tuesday for the discussion night.

so, anything you want to ask, put it right here as soon as you can...