This is the thread to come to for April's Bookclub chat - we'll be kicking off at 8pm on Tuesday 29th April and discussing the brilliant Fall on Your Knees by Ann-Marie Macdonald.

And just a reminder that you can now vote for May's bookclub choice on our May Book of the Month page - we have six very prestigious Orange Prize shortlisters up there for the taking, so get voting now...

I panicked and thought today was Tuesday.

Haven't managed to finish it in time, and am struggling with the writing style (find it quite staccato) and the content (violence, the mother's mental state, and other stuff that I find generally depressing). Will read the chat with interest when I've either given up or finished it!

dp working late tonight. My plan is to be here for the discussion, especially as I missed the last one (damned M62 ) but if he walks in at 7.59 I may feel almost duty bound to make him a cup of tea or something before I ignore him for the rest of the night.

If I'm late, I'll be along later...

Hi there
I've not been a part of this whole book group thing but I love 'fall on your knees' - it's one of the best books I have ever read.

I'm here.

dp not home yet, so I may disappear, but I'm here

Evening all...

I thought I'd kick off with some proper reading group type questions, just for a change. Theres quite a few readers guides to this book (it was an Oprah pick and a big hit in USA) - here's the pick of the bunch

What do you feel caused the terrible pain and anguish that occurs through the Piper family? Did it all start with Mr Mahmoud abandoning his daughter? or was James's inherent nature to be incestuous? Or was it the isolation of the island setting, the Depression and the melting pot of religions/races that brought about unhappiness and eventual disaster?

James is a horrible but complex character. What drove him at times to protect his family and at times to destroy them? Did you feel you understood him at all or did you think he was pretty much a born monster?

Religion and skin color play a large role in separating and defining the characters in this novel. For example, Mrs. Luvovitz, Materia's only friend, is Jewish and married to the kosher butcher. James is Protestant and married to the Catholic Materia. Materia's father was Catholic but claims he took the name Mahmoud in honor of the Muslim woman who protected him from death. Also, Materia is Lebanese and dark. James is Gaelic and pale. James doesn't even realize that Albert, his best friend in the mine, is black because of the soot and dim lighting. Jameel who is Lebanese and married to Materia's sister Camille is "shit-scared of being seen as colored". What role do you think all these differences play in the interactions of the characters? And, how do you think these differences would be seen today as opposed to 100 years ago?

What did you think of the spiritual/magic elements of the book (Lily's sainthood, the visions, the ghosts)? do you feel it was a religious book?

Did the author surprise you with the plot twists? Or did you feel her structural style guides you into suspicions (did you guess who was going to be the father of Kathleen's twins?)

hello!
Can i just say that the last book club i did here was the one on To Kill A Mockingbird - what a difference this book was! From a loving and fair father to one who chose to express himself in such awful ways....

I am not part of the book club yet. I will be watching tonight and will get involved next month. Not sure I can read a WHOLE BOOK in a month though! Any tips on making time for reading that doesn't involve evicting everyone in my house?

I'm not sure whether I actually guessed who the father of the twins was, but I certainly wasn't surprised.

I didn't think the book was particularly religious, but it did obviously have religion running through it.

In answer to question one - I felt that perhaps some of James's problems were actually post traumatic stress from the war....

billybass - do you read in bed? I find that sometimes I only manage a few pages, but you soon get through a book if you do it every night.

strawberrylace: I thought he was quite an odious character before he went to war, tbh.

SquonkTheBeerGuru thankyou. I will try that. Did you all like this book?

I agree with squonk. I didn't find there were particular plot twists, but I found it confirmed my thoughts about what was going on. It was such a dark book that the denouement (poncey word, sorry!) about the father of the twins just confirmed my worst fears....

I only guessed who the twins' father was a few pages before we were told. I imagine it was pretty obvious to some other people, but it really shocked me! (The clues were there. Why was Lily white?)

I thought Mercedes was pretty dreadful too, not just James. What she did to Frances! It was so awful, I could hardly comprehend it. Drove Frances to a drawn-out suicide and finished off James.

I loved it, yes. It's not at all the kind of book I would ordinarily choose, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

billy - I liked the book, but it was a difficult read cos of the subject matter
Squonk - i agree he was a horrible character before he went to war, but it seems to me that he just got worse after he came back

I thought james was fairly damaged from the start - the fact that he falls in love with materia when she is twelve (I think that's right isn't it - definitely under 15 anyway) is strange. But he does seem to have a good heart at the beginning, and then becomes horribly twisted.

I read this book about 6 years ago and absolutely loved it. Wished I could write a book like it. And then I read it again this time and I felt completely different. I thought that the horror and the pain were just too much. I still think its a powerful, imaginative and unforgettable book, but I can't see it in the same light now that I have children. Ann-Marie doesn't have children, which is interesting.

strawberry lace, good point - we have gone from one extreme to the other! What did you think of the children in this book - did you think Frances was a bit like Scout? I thought she had some of the same courage and funniness.

billybass, nice to have you - have you voted for May's book? None of them are too long (unlike this one!) and all are great.

Cocode - were there actually any nice characters??
It was a wierd read as it was completely different in style and content to what I had imagined it was going to be from the description on the back of the book

he got worse and worse as the book went on, really, didn't he. You may have a point about the war. I wonder if he hadn't gone to war whether he would have continued the way he did.

Yes, James was just a peadophile, wasn't he? There was one point when shortly after he married Materia he suddenly saw himself and her through other people's eyes, and realized he looked like a grown-man with a child bride.

Tillybookclub - yes, I have voted in the May book poll.Its interesting to see what you are all saying about this one.

Lily was lovely

A bit spooky though

Tilly - good point about Frances/Scout. And definitely a more scary read if you think about it from the point of view of being a mother. I think Materia was in such an awful position of trying to protect her family from a monster, something which Mercedes and Frances both inherit, though of course they deal with it in such different ways

Can I ask (if there's anyone around who read the book before it was chosen for the book club), how did you come across this book?

I'd not heard of the author at all. I'm going to buy her other one now though. It was miserable, but so so gripping.

Hello, sorry I am late, what a book, I didn't vote for it because in the blurb it just sounded like story of 4 sisters blah blah blah but the back cover does not do it justice, very dark. James was a monster, but again was it nature or nurture, he didn't have a great upbringing, with his father, and although had to support himself which is mature he had a very immature nature, 13 year old girls

I also found it deeply disturbing that Frances was very stocial about her fathers abuse of her, when Mercedes found her.

Cocodebear, a friend of my mum's gave it to her to lend to me. I kept it for five years and read it at least three times, finally gave it back last week. James is a very dark character but he does for a while at least recognise this in himself, when he joins the army to remove himself from Kathleen's vicinity. So there is the possibility of a redemption of sorts, although it is thwarted.

the book was recommended by fleacircus and suedonim (are you here either of you?) as their Unsung Hero but not sure how they came across it. I was passed it years ago by a friend who couldn't stop talking about it.

it is one of the oddest books - it is disturbing, full of awful images and desperate unhappiness, and yet it compels you forwards and I couldn't get it out of my head. Its hard to say you 'enjoy' it - its more like it holds you in its grip and shows you an entire world that remains real after you've finished.

(joining late and very soggy from the hail here...)

Coco, I read a review of The Way The Crow Flies in the Grauniad which mentioned this as a predecessor. I wasn't expecting it to be quite so intense though.

I thought the key to the whole novel is in those lines just after Mercedes pushes James down the stairs (hit me so hard I folded the page down so I could find it again )

"She knows now that no good act is ever unaccompanied by evil. Thst is what original sin has done to us. That is what makes us human. The necessity of sin itself is the cross we must bear."

I also feel she creates a world that is historically accurate (with the depression, the war, the jazz age) yet also steps outside real life. Its not your average historical novel. Perhaps its all the religion in the book, and the location on a remote piece of land with barren rocks where strange things happen. Did anyone else find it quite magical/spiritual?

I thought there were strong signs at least early on in the book that James was struggling against himself - trying to keep himself away from Kathleen, as fleacircus says. When he first meets Materia and hears she is already betrothed to someone to be married at 16, he describes it as "barbaric", and is also resolved "not to touch her [Materia] that way" when they are first married. So I think A-MM is trying to show us that there is some good in him.

I think she's trying to show us that he knows it is wrong.

Then he goes and sleeps with his very young wife, and two of his daughters anyway...

Coco, interested that you feel Mercedes is responsible for what happens to Frances - because she doesn't speak up at the first incident of abuse? I felt Frances was a very strong character and completely clear about what she was doing - albeit choosing a very twisted path because of her own lack of self-worth after all she'd been through. After all, she opens the books with her baptism of the twins, aged however small she is - her determination is already a deep part of who she is.

sophiewd, did you find Frances' reaction to the abuse disturbing because she wasn't fighting and raging? What did you think about her seduction of Ginger?

I found Frances the most interesting character in the book, and Lily the most appealing. I felt sorry for Kathleen but I didn't find her very sympathetic.

tilly - yes, not the historical novel i was expecting. sometimes i felt the spiritual bits didn't fit well with the rest of the novel though

I agree with tilly re: frances being interesting and lily being appealing.

Kathleen sort of redeemed herself when she went to New York a bit, but it didn't make me like her really.

I think because she was so matter of fact about it at the time but showed itself up later when she was mercenary about money for Lily to get her away. It also raises the question about why of all 4 of his children he didn't try anything with Mercedes

Or amybe he just saw too much of his wife in her and he didn't have sex with her for years

Religion was a really strong theme, but particularly trying to expose the huge gap between what people believe and say and what they do.

squonk, completely right of course about it being her showing us that James "knows" what is right and ignores it.

Doesn't it say a lot that mercedes is quite plain?

The reason I disliked Mercedes was that for all her religious fervour and all her sacrifices for the family, she was prepared to fake the death of Frances's baby to save face, even though ^no one else^ was at all horrified/shocked about the pregnancy.

In fact, Frances's pregnancy had brought the family together, caused her to forge relationships with her community and brought happiness and meaning to her life for once - and Mercedes took all that away from her, quite deliberately really. Even a nun was in favour of it, but Mercedes ignored her.

Was she jealous? Given her own failed relationship, virginity and lack of child?

She may very well have been jealous, yes, I certainly felt that she was stubborn and once she had decided on a course of action, there was little swaying her.

I did think though that she may have changed her mind about giving the baby away, and I hoped that she had. I was very sad when I realised that she hadn't after all.

strawberry, i agree - the supernatural elements sometimes a bit laboured, as if the spirits are shoehorned in to push a point. Although i think the ghosts of the past are exactly what she's examining all the way - all the decisions of all the characters slowly building up to a finale where Lily breaks free.

So many people in the book end up searching for their roots - Frances trying to find out about their mother, Lily finding out about her twin and then her father, its almost as if you're cursed until you can put those ghosts to rest.

Ahhh... I see. I hadn't really read it that way - I didn't even really question why Mercedes had hidden the baby, even though it seemed weird after she had apparently gone along with the pregnancy up to that point and been seemingly so supportive.

Going back to it though - she says that the reason Mercedes does not want Frances to have her baby is that she won't need Mercedes any more:

"Everyone seems to think that motherhood is the best thing that could possibly happen to her. Everyone but Mercede. For she knows that once Frances has a child, Frances will no longer need a mother."

coco - absolutely about mercedes being jealous. i think she quite enjoyed being the martyr and making those sacrifices - gave her a sense of power that frances would've usurped with the new baby. therefore destroying that left her powerful again. there's alot of james in mercedes....

yes, flossie, that's absolutely right, I'd forgotten that line...

Message withdrawn

cod - twas very good, wasn't it. Dp loved it as well. Possibly the only book ever we have both liked

Yes, I'd forgotten it too.

I found it very strange, the ghost of Ambrose coming to Lily in the night. Were we supposed to take that literally?

Going to have to go now.

Tilly good luck for next month, let us know how you get on won't you.

icod, that's great, we should email Ben and let him know.

I think you;re all spot on with Mercedes - her position depends on Frances being unhappy. And she can't face change, she's so frightened of what it will feel like for Frances to be free of her that she'll do anything to keep things the way they should be. she is the most damaged character, by far.

do you think she was the most damaged character because she wasn't abused by James?

Hi All. Sorry I'm soooo-had a nightmare time getting DD off to sleep!
Anyway....have just caught up with the chat so far. very interesting...
I found the book really well written and gripping but deeply disturbing. Interesting points made about Mercedes and her motivations for giving away the baby. I didn't like Mercedes very much as a character, but wondered whether she had convinced herself initially that keeping the baby would be a good idea, but then, after realising the "badness" that was in her father (?at the point where she pushed him down the stairs), she thought it would be best for the baby to keep it away from a cursed family. Looking at it this way, maybe there are parallels to Frances sending Lily away.

Poor Lily, walking walking in her little boots.

yes, will let you know sophiewd - and will catch up with you at the next book group hopefully (will be just before you're due I guess?)

I think james' refusal to touch her was probably a part of it, yes. I think Mercedes always felt rejected and different, and his disinterest must have confirmed that.

I kept wondering if there was anything that could have saved them, that might have brought the family back together in some way. It does seem as if Frances' baby might do that, but I wasn't sure why james was so happy about having a little baby about the place all of a sudden.

Everyone,how did the book end?

I wasn't able to get the author here tonight but out of interest, what would you all like to ask her, if you had the chance?

Maybe he saw it as a chance for redemption?

Or maybe he just thought thank the Lord, this one isn't one of mine!

I'd be interested to hear whether she felt anything could have saved Frances from going down the route she did. I found the apparent indifference in her family to her behaviour really difficult to come to terms with.

Coco, I wondered about redemption - this time I'm going to get it right?

I think they found Frances a bit scary though. And Mercedes, at least, had no real idea of what had happened with Frances and the twins.

I suppose I would ask whether she is aware/planned that it is a difficult book to read, especially when you do have children.

And does she think she would have been able to write it had she had kids of her own.

Yes Flossie, and maybe, with him being a boy, he would?

Although the writer has/had no children of her own, I think she did seem aware of what the characters had lost. I didn't feel it made her less empathetic (is it a word?).

She was saying life can be, and is, very cruel sometimes, and stuff happens, bad stuff. Here's some for you.

I'm sure the review I read described The Way The Crow Flies as being a sequel... <<nips to bookshelf to read back of jacket>>

Because I do have children, I found the 'baptism' scene particularly heart-breaking though.

dp home (at last) so am going to switch off puter and make him a brew and soothe his tired muscles.

See you all next month. Have voted for next month's book, but I don't really mind, am getting so much pleasure out of books I wouldn't ordinarily read, I'm not too bothered if my book makes it or not.

that you have it on your bookshelf, Flossie!

billybass, the book ends with Frances' son Anthony appearing at Lily's door and giving her a family tree that Mercedes has sent him (she's just died). Lily opens it and everyone learns where they come from. Its redemptive in that Anthony learns who his mother was, and how wonderful she was, and that Lily has a connection to the last part of her family. Its a happy ending of sorts.,.

Nope, not a sequel at all. Must be figment of my imagination.

I say that because despite the family tree scene, for me this was really one of those books where I wanted to know "what happened next" - because the family felt so damaged by what had happened that I felt like I needed more than just that scene to restore any sort of hope for the future!

(minor hijack) Coco, I actually requested The Way The Crow Flies when I was about halfway through Fall.. as I thought I would really want to read on - but then when it actually arrived I was reading 5 books at once!! Happy to lend if you'd like?(/hijack ends)

Oh, the baptism was devastating. When James hauls her away from the creek and she is struggling to get back again....

Know what you mean Flossie - I wanted the balance to be redressed a bit more than just Lily and Anthony having a cuppa together.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen Anthony bulked out a bit. Rather than 'he was happy'. The end.

I would like tho ask the author what she thought was the reason for James being the way he was-that question is still one that disturbs me...

<flossie, that is really kind of you, thank you. You know what though, I got this last one from the library, and I actually wished I'd bought it, I enjoyed got absorbed in it so much. I've even considered buying it just to have a copy in my collection IYKWIM, even though I've now read it! So I'm going to go ahead and buy the 2nd one - especially as I've just seen it's only £3 on Amazon at the mo - bargain!>

His own father was flawed, I think? He left his wife and son, at least, but we heard nothing else of his character.

hmmm - i don't know, i quite liked the end as it was, i'm not sure i cared enough about anthony...

A thought on James and his behaviour - listening to the news and the horrific Austrian father keeping his daughter prisoner, i felt that the book wasn't quite as wild in its imagination as I thought. James almost seems tame in comparison.

I wonder how the story would have turned out if James had been killed in the war...

Funny, I noticed that on Amazon too

Does MN have an affiliate link for Amazon any more??

coco - i got this from the library too - i did wonder about buying it now i've read it as well, but then realised i could probably never lend it to anyone else, as i'm not sure how i could recommend it as a read!

I wasn't gripped by the book but am trying hard to understand why other people were. The story seemed too grim with little hope in it. I felt some parts of the plot were "bolted on", for example Frances being shot, but it didn't change anything, and Kathleen suddenly having a lesbian relationship. From what we already knew that wouldn't change her father's feelings towards her, and the outcome of his trip to fetch her back was inevitable.

Oh yes, imagine if he had been killed. And he tried, didn't he! He obviously hated that side of himself, the side that meant he desired his daughters. At least he really did know and feel that it was wrong.

tilly - you are right about the similarities with that news story. i think that the girls would've still been quite self-destructive with or without james - something about sibling rivalry i think

strawberrylace, yes, you're right about lending it! Having said that I recommended it to one of my BFs today, without really thinking (oh, btw, it contains paedophilia, infanticide, incest, attempted murder etc etc etc!!!)

lemurtamer, I did find the NY stuff with Katherine a bit silly at the beginning, and when she 'turned' lesbian I thought , and all the stuff about 'hep cats' etc etc. I think it kind of managed to get away with it though, because at some point I stopped thinking this is silly, and just hung onto every word. I even gasped out loud when I realized James fathered the twins [sadcase emoticon]

It has been interesting seeing what you all thought of this book.I will get the May book's title on Friday. Tillybookclub are you expecting a baby soon? If so, best wishes. Bye

flossie, do you mean there's something about the Austrian story and this book on Amazon?
I think we have an affiliate link with them but also with Blackwell - totally up to you where you get the book really, links are just there to be useful.

lemurtamer, interesting to bring up Kathleen's sudden lesbian relationship. I thought that plot twist was quite a nice device as you're assuming all along that she's had a male lover (because of coming back pregnant). But it did seem to come from nowhere, almost like an experimental love affair.

thanks billybass, am due exactly a week today with Baby 2, on my first son's birthday in fact - not sure what he'll make of that particular present.

Great chat everyone, its been a meaty book to get into and have enjoyed looking at it in a different light since I first read it.

Will post the result of May vote on Friday - see you all for the next one I hope (and meanwhile I'm going to practise trying to breastfeed and type at the same time...)

No, no - just wondered if there was an affiliate link that ought to be used when linking to an Amazon book! Like Coco I noticed it was cheap on Amazon at the moment...

The lesbian affair was what made me twig that it must be James that had fathered the twins. I thought it was not a very convincing episode, but then it felt strongly like it had been ripped off from the Colour Purple - funky black musician who introduces main character to joys of same-sex love etc. etc.

Ooh, Tilly - good luck! Hope all goes well. I will be SERIOUSLY impressed if you are here for the next book club - it took me about 6 weeks to even check my email after DS2 arrived

Tilly, my cousin had twins on her first boy's 2nd birthday - so now has 3 Ds's born on the same day!

Flossie, that is disappointing if she's been influenced to such an extent by another book - makes me feel a bit let down somehow!

Best of luck Tilly xx

Thanks Arti, and everyone - am hoping baby might come sooner rather than later and I don't have to lumber about like a diplodocus. On the other hand, I feel HUGELY unprepared and haven't even packed hte hospital bag. Denial? Me?

coco, your cousin must have one hell of a shopping trip going on the week before...but I guess rather nice to get it all out the way? In our family we have 6 birthdays in December, including 2 on Xmas eve. Everyone a bit sick of presents by Xmas day.

Flossie, just to add that I think (at least I'm fairly certain I read it somewhere) the author is a lesbian herself, so I wonder if there's a element of wanting to get that experience into her book.

Well, she puts her own spin on it and does more with the dimension of race - the lesbian relationship in the Colour Purple is two black women after all. But the "love interest" is a nightclub singer. Very different to Rose in character, but I was really strongly reminded of scenes in the Colour Purple by the NY bits in this book.

(Is there a time limit on this book club thing and should I stop posting now??)

All the best Tilly. I'm waiting with interest to see what's picked as the next book of the month - think i may reserve the current front runners from the library just in case! thanks for an interesting discussion everyone - see you next month?

flossie, you've reminded me that i must read The Colour Purple - have never got round to it somehow.

No limit on posting but I guess we usually wrap up between 10 and half past. I am off to heave my vast bulk onto one of those v shaped cushions. See you next time, X

Missed this one...combination of rubbish laptop, and new job that has me getting in later than before and then tearing round the house until late in the evening organising stuff.

Very interesting points made by everyone. I thought it was very powerful, but almost too soaked in sadness at times. At the risk of sounding flippant, a bit Simon Bates 'Our Tune' for those of you old enough to remember...and then my mother dies....and then my dog was run over....and then I discovered something terrible about my Dad...and then I got awfully ill. I am being facetious though, because overall I thought it was very well written.

I have voted for the next one and am keen to find out of my choice wins. I WILL make it next time!

ohforgoodnesssake. I read the whole flippin thing and then forgot to come and talk last night. Bother. Will read the thread now and see what everyone else thought. My own feelings a bit mixed on this one.