yes, I loved that about Atticus - that he would discuss quite enormous moral questions but make it simple enough for them to understand and pick up on it. Must remember to do that in my own household.

I'm very glad we picked it too, I had voted for Middlemarch as I'd never read it, but this was much more enjoyable.

Joining in a bit late but I agreed how it seemed to be a completely different book than the one I read as a teenager, where i focused on equality and justice.
This seemed more about relationships, father/son/daughter and the relationships between a town and a family.
I loved how Atticus had conversations that he knew Scout was listening to, and how he managed to let them make their own decisions within a strong moral teaching, hoping they would take the right path.
It was lovely to re-visit it.
I also loved Atticus thanking Boo for his children.

Ooh, sorry to have missed this. My DS is called Jem, inspired by rereading TKAM when I was pregnant. I loved it as much as I had in my teens.

y'all most welcome, I'm sure...

I'm so glad this was picked as the book of the month, as it gave me a reason to read it again! I've never been to any kind of book club before, so this was a great introduction. thanks Tilly and everyone

Tilly, thanks very much for hosting this and doing such a fab job of organising us.

(now you'll have to post again to get the last word in )

(jumps back in for last word)
princessmama, you're absolutely right. I'd forgotten it was set in 30s, so actually the changes she'd seen were already giant steps towards equality. hence the ability to add hopeful predictions. I wonder what her take on race relations is now.

My question to her would be 'Is morality/goodness innate in humans or is it taught?'

really cross to have had to work tonight and miss this discussion, is one of my favourite books!

Good point princessmama. Probably why there was the hint of civil unrest in Atticus' comment that TillyBookClub referenced earlier.

I would have liked to ask her whether the book was semi-autobiographical, and whether her childhood was a happy one... then I probably would have wanted to know her thoughts on racial discrimination today.

Even though the ten o'clock news has just come on, I didn't realise that that was the time... It goes very fast when dp lends me his laptop and I am allowed to sit in the warm living room rather than the cold, draughty hallway where the pc is

Would have to be - 'Are you Scout?' - an obvious question I know ...

Thx - really enjoyed my first time!

Although the novel was set in the 30s, Harper Lee was writing in the late 50s early 60s, so she knew things were changing with regards to racial discrimination and prejudice.

As we're nearing 10pm, just wanted to say thanks everyone - I'm feeling very skippy and perky after such a stimulating chat. Now going to continue discussion with dh, who has been longing to tell me all about his GCSE essay on it.

Friday 8pm will see our March vote decided - hope you've all put your oars in... think Diving Bell and Butterfly is in the lead right now.

And for April I'm keen to do Unsung Hero's - books/writers that you love but aren't very well known. any suggestions? tell me about your secret passion for some obscure eccentric and we'll put together a list of truly original books.

One last thought: if I had managed to get Ms Lee to come on and chat tonight, what would you have asked her?

The thing about Atticus is that he allows the children the freedom to discover things for theemselves, even if it means them making mistakes along the way. He teaches them through experience.

aaah, thanks mumdebump

tilly - of course, I had forgotten about the judge insisting that Atticus took the case. It was nice to know that he was perceived by everyone to be a fair and honest man, not just his children.

Contrast the tomboyish Scout to the fragrant ladies of Maycomb who like to give to the poor in Africa, yet are prejudiced towards black people at home. I don't know if it was a feminist novel, but Lee was certainly critical of the so-called ladies with too much time on their hands to gossip. Scout may not be able to restrain her hot temper, but she is morally principled even at such a young age. The ladies of Maycomb seem repressed by comparison.

Jem is ace too, i agree. Would be mighty pleased if my sons turned out Jem-like.

In fact, I'm amazed that there isn't a book in the parenting section called 'Superdaddy! The Atticus Finch Method: How to Bring Up Children in a Complex World'

did you see the How to Be a Lawyer book based on Atticus on teh wiki page? The man's a multitasking role model.

She started to write it when she was 30. It was published when she was 34.

Yes, squonk, I remember the 'yet' too. And there's also a big discussion with Miss Maudie where she poitns out the judge specifically hired Atticus to do the defence because he could at least give Tom a proper trial. Anyone else and the jury would have given guilty verdict straightaway. So the judge is aware of the need to be fair.

I suppose Harper Lee believed that this kind of prejudice just couldn;t carry on, it would coem up against a brick wall one day. Atticus says 'one day we;re going to pay the price - I just hope its not in you children's time'. So maybe she thought there'd be a complete riot/revolution?

trust wiki to get a simple thing like her age wrong

She was 30 when she wrote it.

and i'd be happy if my ds turned out like jem....

oh she only used the swearing to shock, and because she could I felt. She knew when not to swear.

I'd be happy if either dd turned out like Scout.

I read that wiki page too!

I got a huge flashback to university when it came to the 'Feminist issues' bit. Not sure if Harper meant this to be a feminist - is it just allowed to be a story featuring a cool, tomboyish girl who doesn't conform? Or do y'all reckon we should be seeing it as seminary text for equal rights?

I do love the fact it's Scout who always wants a fight, and the men hold her back. And that she swears for fun. I'd love a daughter like her. (okay maybe the swearing is inappropriate but would be quite funny for a little while)

I think that she did expect things to change though - I seem to remember Atticus saying something along the lines of there being no chance of a not guilty verdict yet - the implication being that a few years down the line, it would have been possible.

yes princessmama, that's a very wise way of putting it. everyone except Bob is good, they just all suffer from a social illness.

It is hopeful, definitely, but it's also rather sad that nothing really is going to change - the town will remain racist, Boo will remain hidden away, people will remain prejudiced. but I suppose the kids learning compassion and other people's point of view is a future to look forward to. Not that its really happened in America - not sure they've really figured out their prejudice problems yet...

Harper lee was born in 1926 and wrote this in 1960 so she;d have been 34. I don't think she had kids or was married then...it says very firmly in her bio that her pleasures are 'travelling and being alone'. Neither of which are very compatible with bambinos, I would have said.

Have just read that wikipedia page that I linked to... tres interesting.

Truman Capote claims that everything in TKAMB is true or at least strongly based on fact

I also looked that up squonk - where also came across a wikki "fact"

"More recently, it has been ranked by librarians next to the Bible as a book "every adult should read before they die"

So looks as if we chose the right book. I read it at school and loved it - almost called one of my children Scout but dh wouldn't let me!

I first read this book at school, I loved it then and love it still. I totally agree about taking different things from it at different stages in your life. Reading it as a parent for the first time, I related so much more to Atticus and the other grown-ups who are responsible for bringing up Jem and Scout and also how the world when seen through their adult eyes is so far removed from the world as seen through the eyes of the children.

You're right squonk. I wish that Harper Lee had written more books. Her writing is so beautiful and emotive. There's a new biography coming out soon apparently. I'd love to read more about her life.

My dodgy maths works out that wikipedia have her at 34 when she wrote it.

yes, she never wrote anything else. there were claims that Truman Capote wrote TKAM, but I think they've been quashed.

There was an itnersting bit I read in some notes that her won father was a lawyer, her mother was very ill/absent for most of her life etc. so its all fairly autobiographcial. And that the neighbours are all very much charicatures of the people she grew up with. Dill is Truman Capote.

I think that the novel is very hopeful. Bob Ewell is the only truly evil character. In a way it makes events more tragic - prejudice is a social evil that many otherwise good characters are guilty of.

Does anyone know how old Harper Lee was when she wrote this?

Maybe she hadn't reached a cynical age where you start seeing people for what they really are

Wasn't it her only book?

I agree, I think it would be a brilliant place to grow up. Everyone's pretty weird when you're a kid, aren't they? Or at least you pretend they are.

We told everyone our next door neighbour's son was an incredible hulk who couldn't speak and had a secret obsession with my eldest sister. And we'd crawl beneath the windows so that Dennis the travelling man couldn't see that anyone was in when he came to ask for food. Poor guy, he was probably a sweetheart.

One of the very last bits is quite revealing - when Scout says about a classmate 'he was actually real nice' and Atticus says 'most people are, when you finally see them'. Its a very positive message, I wonder if Harper Lee really believed it, that most people are inherently good.

meant community

The sense of commumnity is definitely vital to the story. It is very insular and closed to new people and new ideas. I loved the bit with Miss Caroline and her dewey decimal system and the way her ways are met with utter confusion by the children.

It is a stifling environment, both physically 'a black dog suffered on a summer's day' and mentally. New ideas are not welcome. Men like Atticus, who try to change the status quo, are met with suspicion in some quarters and downright hatred in others.

tilly, i loved the odd neighbours! growing up in suburbia everyone seems so normal and reading this book I thought "wow...it would never be dull on a street like that". The two deaf sisters, Miss Maudie and the formidable Mrs Dubose!

2good - discussed it with dp before tonight, and he remembered that Boo was the rapist!

yeah, scout standing on the porch looking from Boo's perspective was quite powerful, you could almost feel scout growing up a bit.

Squonk - even having read it before I still thought that Boo was going to be the rapist or at least mistaken for him.

haven't read this book for so long, had forgotten, or not gotten so much of the sub text. Am loving this, will be up for reading and contributing to next book discussion. Going off now to dust off my copy of To Kill A Mocking Bird

Tilly - I agree with the you about Scout standing on the porch. It was as though she had finally grown up and was able to understand that she has been a part of his world.
That fact that Boo wasn't a 'scary weirdo' was great as I think Harper Lee really encapuslated how it felt to be a child not understanding the underlying reasons for someone's way of life.
It released so many memories of being a child again.

The device of telling the story in retrospect, with an adult Scout retelling her childhood memories, means that Harper Lee was able to use a combination of experience and naievity. At times, her narration is so innocent and pure, whilst the adult characters are so corrupt and hypocritical.

I was howling at the end!

I loved the fact that Boo turned out to be a hero. I did think that he was going to be creepy weirdo (and as dp had mentioned what the book was about, I thought for some time that Boo was going to turn out to be the rapist)

strawberrylace, I guess they did have enormous freedom to roam and play games, but there always seems to be at least two or three neighbours in close proximity (although they don't understand the kids perspective, they do know who they are and have some sort of connection to them.) So it seems a safer place than today's streets, even with the threat of mr Radley's shotgun.

gemmiegoatlegs, did you find the location a bit stifling? or do you think it would have been a quirky, eccentric place to be? All the neighbours are pretty odd, but you still feel it is a quite magical atmosphere. I love the bit when it snows and hardly anyone has seen the stuff before.

I agree Tilly - that line from Atticus made me well-up....

I also read a lot of Nancy Drew

I think that I was a lazy reader at school and wanted to read fast paced books that got to the essence of the story without having to think about it - (I read too many Nancy Drew books!)
It is only through experience that I have really started to appreciate great writing and I am really loooking forward to revisiting some of these classics.

hi there 2Good2BTrue, nice to have you.

I felt very emotional at the end. Particularly when Atticus says 'Thank you for my children, Arthur'.

The most moving moment for me is when Scout stands on Boo's proch and sees the world from his perspective - two children growing up with the seasons, who suddenly need his protection. I loved that Boo was the hero, and that everyone's prejudices are overturned - including the readers (I thought he was going to end up being a scary weirdo).

I think that's why it didn't feel like a book about race to me - there were prejudices about all sorts of people. E.g when Scout invites Walter Cunningham back for lunch and then makes him uncomfortable, she has to learn to be compassionate and see that his family are poor but honourable.

But what a freedom...for children to roam, and go where they please, and play out until it gets dark - despite obvious "weirdos" in the neighbourhood. I'm not sure I'd let my kids play where the neighbours were likely to shoot them for trespassing in their collards!

Tilly - the fact that the kids are so misunderstood is quite relevant today don't you think? If it was set now there would probably be one of those mosquito devices to stop them hanging out, and CCTV to catch them moving the old ladies furniture...

i think younger readers can appreciate this book too. when i first found it lying around in the bathroom (it was on my big sister's GCSE syllabus) I really enjoyed it from the point of view of the children in the book, and i was entranced by that whole Southern world with porches and ladies fanning and lemonade. it was a real love affair with the location if nothing else. my affiliation with the characters themselves grew over time

plus its funny in places - "damn ham" anyone??

See, i loved it when i was younger (can't remember when i first read it, but it was when i was at school). the trial storyline and racial element is the first level and I think its really accessible to young people for this reason. i only started to think about the other things when i was older. and motherhood does give you a different take on it

It's definitely going to be a book I will read again

2Good2BTrue - what I love about this book (and why it's my fave book of all time) is that you can read it at all sorts of levels, and you get something different out of it each time.

I can completely undersand why kids don't like it or "get" it. I think you need a certain maturity (motherhood goggles?) to understand and appreciate it.

I loved it and I was glad that I hadn't read it as a child

I agree that Atticus is a good dad - very fair, just and makes his kids think for themselves rather than just telling them the answer. Wish i could be sure i would be a parent like that. But the ending shows that he is as infallible as the rest of us - that he has to learn his way through things....

And strawberrylace, I agree, its the community that takes responsibility for its future (i.e children). In most of the book I felt like Scout, jem and Atticus had to fight every aspect of the community (bar Miss Maudie and Tom Robinson) - they were fighting prejudices in school, in the law, in the streets.

But then Heck and Boo and a few others seem to redeem the place.

Hello all,

This is the first time that I have entered the realms of a book club, and it seemed the perfect excuse to re-read this book 25 years after my first attempt (which left me wondering what all the fuss was about).

Having 'grown up' and had kids I saw this in a very different light. I was touched by Atticus who I feel brought Jem and Scout up as best he could as a single father, and found myself welling up at the end of the book (Dh looked on amazed he hated the book at school and says the book put an end to all books and has not read one since).

The relationships between the characters struck me most about this book, and I do agree that the issues are still relevant.

This will now go down as one my favourite books of all time (but I won't pass it on to my 2dds unitl they are old enough to appreciate it!)

definitely squonk - though it took me a couple of reads to get that (being a bit dense I think!). I love that Boo is the hero at the end. And that Atticus isn't always right

i think the black characters seem less "well filled" because they are from a "white" perspective IYKWIM. The white child narrator didn't have the same knowledge and experience of blacks as she did her own white friends and neighbours

yeah, strawberrylace, that's what I was getting at.

Besides, wasn't Heck trying to tell Atticus that it was Boo Radley who had actually killed Bob Ewell?

So there was absolutely no need to prosecute Jem for it as he hadn't done it?

the fact that the black characters are stereotypes just underlines the fact that the trial is a plot device rather than the plot itself (iyswim). Agree it is about the loss of innocence and how views change with experience

Meant to add that I read a note saying the book was originally called Atticus but her publishers made her change it. Funny though that he was the original lynchpin rather than Scout.

I think he's a very good father. What does everyone else think?

I think Atticus felt he would lose the respect of his children if he didn't do the right thing - but, as I said, it takes a community to raise a child, which is why Heck's reaction is v important. he could see things that Atticus couldn't

realise that i sound ridiculous saying Harper Lee is out of date when she wrote this book a good 40 years ago. What I mean is that her black characters are all still fairly stereotypical and not as filled out as her white characters. Scout and Atticus' characters are so strong and so interesting that I focused on them.

I thought the book was all about being brave and being compassionate, no matter what is going on around you. And also about loss of innocence, how it is almost impossible to hold on to a pure, untainted goodness in society.

I felt that Atticus would not allow anybody to accuse him/Heck of not pursuing Jem just because of who his father was, and also, I thought that he felt that he could not allow Jem (and Scout) to see him going back on his principles when it suited him.

probably, but I think Atticus came accross at times as the sort of bloke who likes to take the difficult path, even when there's an easier one.

Also that it takes a whole community to bring up children, not just parents...

I hardly paid attention to the rape trial this time. In fact, i thought the author's approach to her black characters seemed a bit out of date. What really interested me was how Atticus tried to work within the system of prejudice and still get his kids to think freely. I wanted to know if he felt horribly responsible for putting Jem and Scout in danger. And the ending is quite shocking in many ways - Atticus is preparing to put Jem through a trial and legal process for murder when he doesn't have to, and its only because Heck sticks to his guns that Atticus doesn't insist on blaming Jem for it. Isnt' that taking moral high ground a little too far?

me too, i agree with squonk the story to me was the people, rather than the trial. Even though it was written a while ago, the issues are still relevant I think

yep.

Dp had read the book at school, but I hadn't and when he saw me reading it, he told me that it was all about a rape trial where a black man had been accused of raping a white woman. I felt that, whilst that storyline was important to the story, it wasn't what the book was actually about.

Oh no, what a shame, looks like tonight is a bit tricky for many...

But for those of you who can make it, hello.

I want to get stuck in straight away and say that when I first read this book (aged 12) it seemed to be all about race and the trial. And then when I read this book last week (aged 32) it suddenly became all about parenting skills and how to bring children into the world with the right values. It occured to me that everything hangs on these very strong father characters: Nathan Radley (who imprisons Boo), Bob Ewell (who probably molested his daugher) and Atticus (who is a moral hero). Its their attitude to children that drives the main action, in many ways. And the mothers are all absent.

Did anyone else read it with massive Motherhood goggles on?

<<<pours glass of wine and wanders into thread a couple of minutes early to get the best seat>>>

Might not be able to make it tonight - ds & dd have chicken pox and are going mad....

in case, I was wondering if ya'll (just getting in the mindset - it's a common southern-us contraction) would share your favorite quotes from the book.

i love miss maudie's "a merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance" - i would love to say that wearing a "grin of the uttermost wickedness" one day.

have fun!

I'm working tomorrow evening during prime-time book club, and can't get internet access at work, but will pop in when i get back at 11pm to see how the chat went
Am v gutted no Harper Lee for author chat . oh well, i suspect self -imposed isolation was unlikely to be tempted by an on-line chat

Have enjoyed reading it and would love to join in but Tuesdays really difficult . Have fun.

Sadly I don't think we'll have the author joining us tomorrow night - I haven't heard anything back from the publisher - but I'm looking forward to having the full 2 hours to chat about it amongst ourselves. See you at 8pm tomorrow.

oops, my brackets are squiffy

Here is the March Book of the Month thread - get voting now...

Just to let you all know that the March selection is up and ready - join the thread and see the selection [[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/5005/482153?rnd=1203545886107 here}}

I'm waiting to hear about the author chat, will keep you posted.

Looking forward to Tuesday night - does anyone else's copy of Mocking Bird have Study Notes in the back? Mine has whole essay plans. So when I start sounding off like a GCSE Eng Lit teacher you'll know why...

an author chat would be fab.

I've never joined in the book club talks beofre but this is my all time favourite book

This is the place to come for our February discussion night on To Kill a Mockingbird. We'll kick off at the usual time of 8pm - and I'll let you know if we get an author chat sorted...