Always meant to come back to this (been having a bit of a MN break ). I did finish The Gathering but it took me a very long time as I kept finding excuses not to read it. TBH I was pleased when it finished.

I have since read On Chesil Beach and IMO it was a fantastic read!

I'm just adding my thoughts a little later than expected.
Still finishing the book but popped onto the thread to see what others thought.
I read her book about having babies 'Making Babies' I think it was called , and I found 'The Gathering' similar.
Interesting, diverting for several seconds and then gone from my mind.
I agree with the fact that she managed to narrate the story in the way that Anne's thoughts would have been , rambling, incoherent, etc but I felt nothing really for any of the characters and found it difficult to engage with the book.
It was like emotional vomit.
And always when you read a book about family life, and you are waiting for some revelation, the fact that it is sexual abuse is a little overdone. Tired and it feels like it is there for effect rather than adding to the emotional tapestry.
Broken characters don't always need some seminal moment to hang the events of their lives on.
I will persevere to finish it , but will be returning to some classic fiction after this. I am amazed this won the booker prize.

Interesting discussion, and I am glad it was not only me who found this one quite hard going! I will be eagerly awaiting the results of the vote to get the next one (although I think the one I wanted is losing....boo!)

Well, I'm in the middle of talks with Anne's publicist to see if she can answer some questions for us via email. So furcoatnonics, I'll put your ones into my list - and add any others that anyone puts forward - post whatever you'd like to ask Anne here, and I'll let you know how we're progressing...

I am desperate to ask her if the abuse is meant to be a fact or not, but I have a suspicion she wouldn't answer that directly.

I also want to know if the husband was supposed to be unfaithful.

Finish it - its only short.

not shohsa nonics, though she has spotted you

don't worry I haven't been in tea shop for ages but nice to know you can pop in whenever

LOL furcoatandnoknickers, the other option is to take it with me when I am away at the weekend with the intention of finishing it and leave it in the hotel?

mean

mrs spoon. I would finish it if I were you. Not that theres anything massivly revealing or spectacular, but it does meen you can give it away! If I dont finish a book it just sits on the shelf taunting me as the book I couldnt finish.....might be a bit ocd???just a thought

I haven't read all the comments because I haven't finished the book (it has taken me the better part of the month to get 2/3 through ).

To be completely honest this book doesn't do it for me, I don't know whether to bother finishing. Although at times the observations are stunningly sharp it just appears a bit of a ramble to me and just as I think I am getting to grips with a part of the book it turns out it didn't happen, it is making me made, although I totally understand what the author is trying to achieve as we all remember events differently and particularly children end up with a skewed idea of what happened during childhood.

Bottom line, so far it doesn't work for me and I'm not sure if I can be bothered to finish it.

robert Smith, you have made my day.Thank you!! Im away to my bed now.. cant pop in for a brew tomorrow as am away from poota..will I survive. xxx

Are you the lovely Shosha? give us a clue, comawn...

used to see you in tea shop

sorry, not meaning to be all elusive and cryptic - have just name changed

HELLO robert smith is a naughty boy, dont say it was your fave! Who were you in my previous life? its very confusing to have such a massive break...

long time no see nonics

Bugger. Ive missed it. So sorry not to be in on the first one. I have read it. It haunts me and I dont know why as like most people on her I didnt get to like or admire or even hate any of the characters in the book.
If I could I would like to ask the author a few questions!
Whats the significance of the driving at night?
Why did V keep telling us that adas house/room opened up straight into the street?
Why did she hate her husband so much? She only thought he was having affairs, in a vague way.

one last thing - if you did like this and want something similar in terms of writing style, try joan didion (the toibin review on my book cover is right). her latest - entitled the year of magical thinking - is gut-wrenching, but written in a similar voice and 100% autiobiographical (no mysteries at all)

what is the next book?

<nosey>

although, if she had joined us, she maybe could have told us what actually happened

I've really enjoyed tonight too, I've got utterly different thoughts about the book after hearing everyone's opinions.

I'm heaving a giant sigh of relief Anne didn't join us - would have been toe-curlingly difficult to discuss it truthfully

See you soon everyone, thanks againx

I thought Anne must have had ups and downs in her marriage, to have written this. Soemtimes the description of sex with her husband felt too raw to be made-up. And Annme has children, so I think the love for Veronica's daughters is very direct. I'm not sure what her own upbringing was like - I suppose she must have known families in Ireland with all sorts of secrets and relationships that she could draw on.

I think Booker judges look for something distinct. This book did make me feel I'd read something memorably different, whether I liked it or not.

oooh-duh. how about book on punctuation, or maybe how to type while nursing.

thanks tilly.

wasn't sure if I would enjoy tonight as much as I did the last one, without the presence of the author, but I did

Not sure I would have admitted to not liking the book if she had been here though

thanks, tilly! lot's of fun - look fwd to next month & hope to have someone watching the kids so i can participate more.

Sorry for arriving so late. Perhaps next month I'll get the timing right for a change!

Thanks Tilly, I've really enjoyed tonight. I also admired the book without liking it, but I think much more highly of it after this discussion. I might even read it again & reappraise what I think did & diidn't happen!

will try to think of a book that I like enough to want to read again and discuss on here, but that I don't like enough to risk everyone else hating it and putting me off it forever

Its definitely a book that divides people. There were more than a few literary bods who fell off their chaise-longues with amazement when it won the Booker...

As we're nearing the end, wanted say thanks everyone for coming, and also... I'm keen to do a Mumsnetter Recommends month, where everyone puts forward their top book that they'd like to see discussed in this club. Would you have a think and send me your recommendation? I will set up a thread for it tomorrow... We'll probably do it in March, there'd be a vote as usual, etc.

Would love to hear what your favourites are anyway - and if you're reading something particularly good right now.

I would like to know how Anne wrote this - it feels like a bunch of scraps pieced together. It also feels really personal - how could she come up with all these emotions without experiencing something like them first-hand? Perhaps that's why the Booker judges chose it? Pardon my sounding clueless, but is this what Booker judges look for?

Perhpas it was my lack of attachement to veronica that was the problem. If I didn't care about her, I guess I was never going to be too interested in her ramblings.

I'm afraid I'm another who just couldn't get to grips with this book.
I got to about three quarters of the way through and just couldn't make myself go any further. Even if I dislike a book I usually struggle on to the end but just didn't have any interest in any of the characters and couldn't fathom a story.
(I'm quite relieved I'm not the only one!! )

MadamePlatypus, I am in a total mind-spiral - have no idea now what did or didn't happen. No proof at all, like you say, that she did see anything.

So. If it didn't happen...

I think the way I'm going to take it, is that Nugent was a nasty character and Ada was a complicated one, and something unconscious in Veronica is sure of that. And here is her story to make sense of it all, and she includes Liam's deterioration in there to make his death acceptable. And the book is about how she needs to believe in that, even though nothing can ever be relied upon. And that we all create these stories to hold everything together, otherwise the death of loved ones or the disastrous relationships that we suffer are too random to be acceptable.

Otherwise, I'm wondering if she's just in deep, deep denial that her brother was an unhappy alcoholic who was born that way. And she has to create an event that a therapist would pin-point as the start of it all. But that seems a bit nonsense?

well, it does take a particular talent to write about nothing (Steven King's "Gerald's Game" springs to mind) and I did feel that this book was really about nothing (well, it was about lots of things but as I was no wiser at the end than I was at the beginning, it may as well have been nothing)

I wouldn't have read it were it not for this club, and that was one of the reasons I joined the club, to read things I wouldn't otherwise look at. But if I am entirely honest, without a recommendation from someone I wouldn't read another of hers.

Don't feel disloyal, Squonk! You are great for coming tonight, for saying what you think and for not throwing the book in the bin by page 10 (which is what I did with Atonement)

And you are not alone - there were plenty of negative reviewers who couldn't stand the introspection and thought it was dreary.

I probably wouldn't have read this book, were it not for the Booker and this bookclub. But what is interesting is that I do now think Anne Enright is original and clever and I want to read other stuff by her. This particular novel may not have completely thrilled me, but I do think the author has serious talent. What do you think, Squonk?

Veronica describes walking in on the abuse and then says that it couldn't have happened in the front room, it must have happened in the garage where she rarely went, so was she really a witness? She mentions that Nugent was cruel to Liam in other ways but this is never expanded on.

Now I am confused about what did or didn't happen. However, if the abuse didn't happen, what is the book about?

Absolutely, nerdbomber, I think that's why I admire Anne Enright's style so much - you do feel as if you're inside Veronica's head, shooting off in one direction and then another, and almost swimming along with all her emotions. Its amazingly skillful to pull that off. Yet I don't like Veronica very much (although that doesn't matter really).

Funnily, when I first read it, I thought the major events were set in stone, and they all happened (even the meeting between Nugent and Ada in the hotel reception). But now I feel more and more that its Veronica creating her own narrative, and whats important is that her version of events is real enough to her that it helps get her life back on track.

I suppose the key thing is whether she does tell the rest of the family - then it becomes important that it is true or false?

that was one of the reasons why I didn't like the book, I want to read a book and be told what is happening, I don't really want to have to guess (does that make sense) I feel somewhat disloyal saying that I didn't really enjoy the book, but if I'm completely honest, I couldn't wait to finish it so I could start on a different one

Madameplatypus, I guess Ada couldn't afford a house (I think her job is sewing theatre costumes), but surely there was someone who could have taken them in? But your earlier point about abuse being endemic at that time and assimulated into normal life is key, I think. Perhaps she saw it as almost inevitable, and not worth losing a house over?

Still, I think there must be more than finances that kept her there. I think there must be something very cold, very cut off about her, not to try and remove her children/grandchildren from that threat.

(if there is a threat, am beginning to wonder now if the whole book isn't Veronica's mad greif-addled fantasies, and none of it is real at all. aRghh, my head isn't able to deal with this much uncertainty)

tilly - you've hit on why i like this book.

the delightful thing is that all we have to go on are veronica's musings. like mine, her recollections of childhood are foggy, patchy and full of imaginative reconstructions. while i want to know about the characters in her life, all i seemed to really learn about in this book was how she thinks about things and copes with life's hurdles. it's like reading a poetic journal.

I completely missed that she was a prostitute!
Have sneaked a peek at the book to remind myself what Veronica says is the truth and what is imagined. And even when saying 'These are the facts', she says Liam 'was probably abused by Lamb Nugent' And then she says it 'explains too much'.

It looks as if she is scrabbling around, making things up to find a reason for all the disasters, unhappiness, alcoholism etc. It has to have a cause somewhere (and she does to look to Ada for that, but can't find it).

I completely missed that she was a prostitute!
Have sneaked a peek at the book to remind myself what Veronica says is the truth and what is imagined. And even when saying 'These are the facts', she says Liam 'was probably abused by Lamb Nugent' And then she says it 'explains too much'.

It looks as if she is scrabbling around, making things up to find a reason for all the disasters, unhappiness, alcoholism etc. It has to have a cause somewhere (and she does to look to Ada for that, but can't find it).

Do you think that she would have been able to afford a less nice house? Charlie doesn't seem to have been a very reliable provider. It is suggested that he could have lost the house gambling. This isn't definitely the case, but he doesn't seem to take any responibility for the paying of bills. Does Ada have a job (apart from prostitution?). I missed this.

Oh, and meant to say, I think the abuse was partly Nugent's punishment to Ada (as suggested by notyummy at the beginning of this thread). I think he probably wanted to both hurt her and be near her, and that abusing her relatives fitted very well with that, especially if she wasn't telling anyone. She's then in a bizarre secret relationship with him, isn't she?

I thought the same as Squonk. One of the first things we are told about her is that she was a prostitute herself. Again, there's no real evidence of this, and it may all be Veronica's imaginings but a picture is painted of someone who may see flesh as a commodity

I found it really difficult to keep track of who was who, I felt as vague as Veronica's mother about names, I kept having to flick backwards to find the list of all the children in order.

That made it difficult to engage with them, but I suppose that was perhaps deliberate in a way.

I thought she was almost OCD, in that she needed everything to be just so. And here was a situation so messy, nasty and wrong that she jsut couldn't face up to it at all.

I did want to shake her very hard and ask her why she didn't get the hell out of there. Surely a less-nice house without a resident pervert is better than a nice house with one?

i think ada was wrapped up in a fantasy world of her own - the fabric book, the theater-like room in her house. she avoids blame or acknowledgement, though i do not doubt that she knew.

I wondered if she had almost offered the children to Nugent in exchange for cheaper rent

What does everyone think of Ada? Do you think she stood by as her own children were abused (and is the abuse the reason for Brendan being in the asylum?) Or is that another one of Veronica's imaginings?

Yes, sorry marimba, I didn't put my sentence very well - and certainly didn't think you would think it was harmless!

What I meant is that I agree that you're lead to expect a more dramatic situation. And it was interesting that reviewers felt let down in some way by the revelation.

I suppose the episode is in keeping with the whole introspective style of the book - its pretty low key, whilst dealing with all the big themes (death, sex, family). Like lemurtamer put it, its very vague. The vagueness kept the plot ticking over but it did mean I couldn't form a bond with Veronica at all.

well, it certainly didn't help.

Perhaps if he had had someone he could talk to about it, or if he had had a strong parent figure to help him then he wouldn't have been so bad.

There was obviously a bit of an alcohol theme throughout the family, I think I counted three alcoholics amongst the siblings, so trying to drink himself better would have been his first option I imagine

Do people agree or believe that it was the abuse that "ruined" Liam? Although it would be understandable, its very hard to know without his word for it.

I think Veronica is unsure about the abuse. She certainly thinks it ruined Liam - maybe it is easier for her to be sure about its effect on somebody else. However, she is unsure how important the abuse is. She says that every large Irish family has somebody who is gay, somebody who is abused. It is only years later when she hears about stories of abuse on the news that she can put it in a modern context. In Veronica's generation her father routinely hits his children and violence is normal in the family. It is clear that Veronica treats her own children very differently.

I think it is suggested that Nugent has abused two generations of children, but the adults have turned a blind eye to it. I don't think Veronica knows herself how far Nugent was evil and how much he was just doing something that was known to be wrong but endemic and accepted.

Sorry, what a fool.

I think for me the lack of engagement must have been a lack of sympathy for any of the characters, in particular Veronica or Liam. While they'd had hard childhoods, nothing led me to be more interested in them as adults. I don't think it's the themes as I've been entirely gripped by other books on unfamiliar subjects.
Perhaps the vagueness and introspection of the book is a study in Veronica's breakdown after the death of the Liam, but I didn't find that especially tragic for her or her family either.

I think for me the lack of engagement must have been a lack of sympathy for any of the characters, in particular Veronica or Liam. While they'd had hard childhoods, nothing led me to be more interested in them as adults. I don't think it's the themes as I've been entirely gripped by other books on unfamiliar subjects.
Perhaps the vagueness and introspection of the book is a study in Veronica's breakdown after the death of the Liam, but I didn't find that especially tragic for her or her family either.

Tilly, I didn't think the abuse was harmless, but as there was a feeling throughout the book that we were building up to this revelation, I was expecting more- maybe more episodes or a more prolonged description. In fact the childish description of Liam growing out of Nugent was particularly disturbing

I wondered if I was missing something about the husband's affairs, tbh. It was made so clear that he WAS having them, but I couldn't see it, I was like you, Marimba, I doubted this.

I think that confusion is deliberate, I don't think we're meant to know one way or the other. I suppose it's the uncertainty (coupled with active imagination and grief) that drives Veronica to her slightly mad state.

There's a point in the book where she says the only things she's sure of are the things she didn't see. I took that to mean that she doesn't trust her childhood memories any more, or trust anything for that matter.

Squonk, I didn't think she was abused, although she wondered if she had been, perhaps to try to find an explanation for why she felt so wretched, or maybe to lessen her feelings of guilt. I agree with you though that it was difficult to decide what had really happened, e.g contrary to M Platypus, I didn't think that her husband had affairs, but that was imagined by Veronica too

I liked the description of her childhood in the 70's, and I found the subject of being part of a large family interesting. If anybody watches the discovery channel, big families are their latest theme (e.g. John and Kate + 8) - it is all shown in a very positive, Waltonesque light. It was interesting to see it portrayed in a less romantic way.

marimba, were you surprised at the level of abuse, when it was finally revealed? Some reviewers said they thought the abuse was 'relatively harmless' and therefore not something to get so worked up about. (I'm not sure they'd say that if it were their child, but there we are)

What is quite clever about the relvelations is the uncertainty of how much more happened between Mr Nugent and Liam, and to Veronica. It make the abuse even worse, that she's not sure of its extent.

I was quite confused about what had happened and what she had imagined a lot of the time. Was she abused by Nugent as well?

lemurtamer, you've put your finger on EXACTLY what I was feeling when I finished. I admired her writing technique very much, I found myself turning pages without a problem, I was interested...but without a strong emotional attachment to any of it. I took it all in a very disengaged way. Is that a product of the characters, the themes or her style, do you think?

Bizarrely, I felt a sense of relief when the abuse was finally described. I don't know if that was the skill of the book- getting you to feel the same relief as Veronica in getting it off her chest

I didn't really like the book, either lemurtamer

Or I guess that might be the problem, that the family were always far more important/vital than anything else, and her husband couldn't break through that, whatever he did.

Re the non-family members, I thought Mr Nugent was a strong presence in the book, his frustration and deviousness were horrible. He lingered in the background like a cold draught. Charlie seemed to be a stereotypical happy gambler, and I didn't find his character stood up well enough against the others.

Generally I thought the female characters were more fully realised than any of the male ones. The male ones fell into quite predictable roles.

I felt it was well-written but unengaging, I didn't really care about any of the characters so it makes me wonder what's the point?

I had little sense of Veronica herself, but perhaps this was because she had little sense of herself whilst she was grieving.

Something I don't understand is that I didn't find her revelation of the abuse that disturbing; I don't know if this was because as a child seeing this, she didn't realise the significance.

Like Notyummy, I couldn't work out what it was about Ada that generated the failing family.

I'm trying to think of something that I liked about the book, and can't really, although I didn't feel as if it wasn't worth finishing. If people loved it I'd be interested to know what grabbed them.

Maybe there were just too many children to look after - the father could cope with the other children? I think there was an element of L, V and K feeling cast out.

I agree that he was only on the periphery, but occassionally big things were revealed about him e.g. he had affairs and Veronica was attracted to him because he was chronically unhappy.

what I wondered, was when Liam, Veronica and Kitty got sent to Ada's, what happened to the other children? Surely they weren't old enough to be left alone?

Veronica seemed a bit more optimistic towards the end. Perhaps some of her mood was caused by her personality and some by grief. I think one of the themes of the book was how much is unhappiness caused by an event in the past, and how much is it just inevitable. Kitty felt damaged by being hit, but Veronica rejected this.

hi

MadamP - I didn't feel like we really "met" the husband, he just seemed to be peripherally there

I quite liked the child Liam. I think the character of the husband didn't really come to life - the Hegarty characters had so much substance that there didn't seem to be much room for the others.

Evening all...

Thought I'd kick off tonight's chat by asking if you found the characters likeable or not. I agree with notyummy that none of them are particularly appealing, but somehow that's part of the charm of the book. I did find myself wondering why Veronica was quite so miserable and pessimistic, it was never that clear to me what had gone wrong in her marriage...

Thanks notyummy, was about to cut and paste your message from the other thread. I'm with you about the grandma's culpability, will be interesting to see what everyone thinks about her tonight...Have a great night out and hope to see you a bit later on...

Ok, not much time, but a few random thoughts on The Gathering.

Overall enjoyed it, although it nearly lost me in places. Struggled to like any of the characters, although that is not a criticism, as it means they have been laid bare with all their flaws.

I still haven't decided what the Gran's culpability was...did she know about the abuse, and was the abuse directed at the Mother as well as grandchildren?

Was the abuse a form of 'punishment' for the Gran for her percieved rejection of the male character (can't remember his name, and I am at work without book!)

I am still a bit confused about the hospital (bit dense ) Was the mother sent there whilst depressed?

Any answers to my questions tonight when you discuss will be gratefully received. I will have a look when I get in from my Thai meal!

Oooh...will have to cut and paste my erudte musings here the....

Hi all, this is the thread to use for tonight's bookclub session on The Gathering by Anne Enright - see you at 8pm, can't wait to hear what everyone thinks...