looooong question.... help please!

[nappiesLaGore]

not sure where to put this thread as it covers feeding, sleeping and nappy/potty training but here goes:

will try to be concise, but cant promise anything

have got our bedtime routine a bit skewed. its ok, and it works, sort of, for now, but theres a fatal flaw which will become a problem if we dont fix it, adn i want some advice as to how to go about that.

first, we have: ds1 whos 3.4, ds2 whos 2.3 and ds3 whos 8m.

currently we do: wind down time, bath at 7 (all of them in together) then into older 2 boys' room to get on nappies and pjs at which point i take ds3 to our room and dp reads a story to older 2 while they drink a bottle each and then sits there with light out till they are settled/asleep (usually only needs about 10 mins)

meanwhile i am giving 8mo a bf (tho he will v recently accept a bottle) for about 20mins/1/2 hr in dark rm. he falls asleep this way and i put him in his cot and leave. the idea is to put him down awake, and sometimes he is. just. but not by much.

mostly, well, largely, they will each then go through the night - though it is far from uncommon for 1 or more of them to need attention in the night at some point and they are always put back to sleep with a new bottle by either dp or myslef. sometimes the older ones may get me to lie with them till they go back to sleep (which is tiring, but actually really nice if im honest).

now. the prob with this is:
A-they are drinking too much at night so weeing tons. ds's 1 and 2 wear 2 nappies at night and sometimes leak even through this. ds's 1 and 2 are currently learning to use the potty too, but they'll never conquer night wee's while drinking so much at night.
B-not great for teeth either. they brush while in the bath, but then drink to go to sleep so... and worse, ds1 has VERY watered down juice, not milk (hes gone off milk and v stubborn), but juice all the same and i fear for his teeth
C-they all now 'need' to be drinking to fall asleep! which isnt great coz they will always need assitance/drinks to fall asleep... (older 2 always have 1 spare bottle each on their bedside tables in case of night wakings)

sooooo...

what do i do?

ah, yes - also relevent is that we are currently staying in 2 bedroom guest accom next to our house which is being extended/knocked about. we are due to move back into the house (and have much more room tho i want the boys to share a room) in march. which will unsettle any established routine but not by much so maybe not a consideration.
in january ds1 (then 3.7) will start a new nursery building up to full time,
ds2 (then 2.6) will start at local preschool 5 mornings p/w
and ds3 will turn 1yo. so should i try to implement changes before or after all that?

so sorry for the long essay question there! should prob be about 4 threads not 1...

[Glassofslime]

Could you try putting less water/milk/juice in their bottles and gradually reduced it over time? Slowly, slowly.

[QueenQuootieSpookypieBee]

Can you wind down bottles to smaller and smaller ones? Also, give water?

[gigwig]

Gosh a lot of stuff here. Had an idea about the milk. I wonder if you could try swapping to water instead of the milk perhaps that could help and giving it to your 2 eldest in cups.

Actually, we've started doing that for our DS who drinks a lot of milk during the night and has similiar thing of really heavy nappies. He has now the one cup of milk at bedtime then afterwards only water. He has been alright with this apart from a few grumbles to start and now drinks a lot less at night - half a cup of water in contrast to 2 -3 cups of milk - cos he doesnt like water so much.

[nappiesLaGore]

hmmm. could water things down more and more, and try the smaller bottles (good idea) but as for switching to water... dont like my chances. think that would go down like the proverbial lead balloon.

like the cup idea and have indeed launched a 'hearts and minds' campaign to get cups more used and all the bottles in the sodding bin (it really is time to get rid, i know...) but again... easier said than done. they are really attched to their bottles for comfort - even when tired in the day. they often just have a bottle and some quiet time rather than naps any more in the day.

[nappiesLaGore]

apologies for starting a thread - esp such a demanding one - then running, but dp has requested my presence for dinner... will be back to check for posts after, promise.

TIA anyone!

[QueenQuootieSpookypieBee]

when my mum "weaned" me off a dummy, she said some baby bats needed them more than me and had "donated" them... maybe say you gave the bottles to some little baby - lambs? or something? Or reverse psychology with regards to a cup "oh, I dont know if your big enough for this grown up cup yet...."

Just wild guesses!

[soph28]

what happens if you don't give them a drink in the middle of the night? sometimes it's not them thats dependent on it but you...

the thing that works for my ds1 (only 18mths) is a Vtech music light show thing that he can activate himself if he wakes in the night- we quite often hear it playing in the night but rarely hear a peep out of him- he absolutely loves it.
also do they have comforters - a cuddly, wee blanket/toy or similar? Again, my ds is very attached to his and will ask for it if he is sleepy or in need of quiet time and I would rather he was attached to this than a bottle. Maybe they could leave their bottles out for the 'bottle fairy' who would exchange the bottles for the comforter/toy/treat whatever?

[soph28]

QueenQuootieSpookypieBee I only saw your posting after I had posted mine- great minds and all that!

[nappiesLaGore]

reverse psychology doesnt work in thsi instance. tried it. they are both happy to be called babies when they have bottles.

they do drink out of cups. at play group and at meal times. they just refuse to when they want soothing

might try the baby lambs thing... that might work, but the little sods are a bit sharp, they might sniff the lie...

if they dont get a drink in the middle of the night, they will scream, wail or pester till they get one. this may wake other children. and will certainly not let either dp or myself go back to sleep, until it stops.

they do have comforters. ds1 has 'duncan duck' who hes v attached to and wont go to sleep without. this is in addition to drinks, not a substitute, sadly. ds2 has soft toys on his bed too, but is not really too fussed about them tbh. he pretends to like them coz his brother has Duncan, but hes not really bothered.

and the lights and music thing might be worth a try, but i worry it would disturb other child as they are in the same room (and i want ds3 in with them too by the time hes 1yo)

[nappiesLaGore]

have to go as dp is actually jealous of MN and needs some attention (just another baby )

will check again in the morning. cheers all.

[lulumama]

it's a tough habit to break , they don;t need a bottle in the middle of the night - (except the baby possibly.....)

it is just that...a habit... they are not hungry, if genuinely thrsty , water would do...

it has become a sleep association....and needs to be broken so they can self soothe ..

you need to go cold turkey in my opinion..and use controlled crying / rapid return to sort out the screaming and pestering that will ensue....basically they want milk, if they don;t get it, they have a tantrum..would you accpet this behaviour over anything else or in the daytime?

so , pick a start date. tomorrow would be good. tell the older two what will happen before bed time and be prepred for 3 - 4 rough nights. then they will get the hang of it.

if all else fails, give them a dummy which will sort out the weeing !!

sorry to sound harsh, but you need your sleep and they don;t need their milk!!

[soph28]

i totally agree with lulumama, you need to go cold turkey- especially if you don't think anything else will work, which it seems you don't. You may have a few really difficult nights but it's got to be worth it in the long run !

[nappiesLaGore]

lulu (what happened to the lunatic? has halloween been and gone already? when the hell is/was it anyway??) and soph;

yes. i think you are right. in fact, reading your post has made me realise i knew that all along, i just needed some backup IYSWIM.

so thanks for saying what i needed to hear.

[soph28]

Glad to hear it, was worried you might take it badly! Let us know how you get on - good luck!

[nappiesLaGore]

nah, im not so easily upset (well, not at this point in my cycle anyway)

yes ok, will post back with updates.

dont hold your breath tho as i cant face doing it just yet! got sooo much on and i need dp to be totally on side so i'll need to wait for a good time to talk to him about it...

[lulumama]

welcome nappies - dropped halloween name as thought it was too scary! let us know how you get on....

[kitbit]

My ds is nearly 2 and also addicted to his bottle, and when he wakes at night needs another bottle to settle....just like your 3!! ds also has leaky nappies, so it sounds as though things are much the same at our house!

We have started Elizabeth Pantley's no cry sleep solution for toddlers, which deals with night weaning amongst other things. It's really for breast feeding toddlers, but the principles are the same. The idea is that you start by waiting until the gulping (=thirsty drinking) finishes and subsides into sleepy sipping, which is the bit they are probably using the soothe and comfort. As they will be drowsy already you take the bottle out gently. If they wake stuff it back in sharpish and make a mental note to leave it a bit longer next time. Gradually you go from taking it out right at the end of the bottle to earlier...and earlier...and eventually they have a quick drink and then stop and nod off, and finally they get practised in the idea of not needing to suck to sleep, and hopefully have a go at doing it themselves. We are at the stage where ds has a quick drink then gives the bottle back before rolling over. He still needs a bit of a suck to get back to drowsy, but little by little! It's taking a few weeks, but better (for us) than any form of controlled crying.

Might be worth a go? And less traumatic for all concerned. Good luck!