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Behaviour/development

Need thoughts re dealing with my 4 yr old ds hitting people!

31 replies

Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 19:20

I think the testosterone surge that I have heard about on MN has hit in our house - ds is four and started in reception in September.

He has occasionally thumped me and his dad recently when he's been thwarted and feels cross, which we have said a firm 'no' to, and he doesn't repeat it - until another day! Final straw today, my mum reported that he'd got cross with her today and repeatedly thumped her! She eventually walked off but he followed her to thump her some more!

I know this is outrageous and I know I have to deal with it but just wondered what others do - I have used time out with him in the past, when he was younger, but haven't had to for ages; I think I will use this for hitting, but do you think hit warrants STRAIGHT in time out, or do I give him a warning?

I need to be clear what I'm doing so I can ask my mum to do the same when she has him.

He's such a delight in all other ways, I hate that he does this and want to knock it on the head asap.

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 19:21

oh, btw he never hits other children, has settled in to school really well, and never hits any other adults except me, DH and his gran!

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mrsflowerpot · 11/10/2006 19:33

DS went through this at 4. No warnings for hitting imo - straight to time out. (He has to know beforehand that this is how it works though.) It sank in pretty quickly with ds.

We taught ds 'angry hands' to use when he is frustrated - he screws up his hands and pushes them together. It gives him something physical to do with his frustration (and keeps his hands busy!).

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 19:36

I just say 'we don't hit people' and tell him / carry him upstairs to our bedroom where he can thump pillows and throw himself around on the bed. I join in and say "I'm cross, I'm really CROSS" It is quite therapeutic actually

When not at home I encourage foot stamping and vocalising how cross he is, but usually distraction works the best. Make it into a joke until the temper has passed. Then insist on an apology for anyone injured by the hitting!

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 19:38

Just wanted to add that it needs to be ok IMO for children to express / show us their anger. If they have no better way than hitting, it is partly our fault for not having shown a better way, I believe. This helps me feel less enraged / upset by ds when he does it.

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TwigTwoolett · 11/10/2006 19:41

oh god .. the concept of giving a kid attention for hitting fills me with dread

yes straight to time out .. no hitting .. straight to time out

no hitting - time out

not play fighting with mummy against cushions

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 19:41

thanks MrsF, and Franny; I think your strategies are great franny and almost identical to what we already do with ds; with this post I'm talking about the odd occasion when we've got past all that and when ds has the red glint in his eye and NOTHING will distract him from his path! And oh, believe me he does NOT have a problem vocalising his crossness

I think I just need a strategy up my sleeve for bringing it home to him that he simply mustn't do it; he isn't getting that at the moment.

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 19:43

Oh Twig



You do insist on twisting things around

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 19:43

yes, Franny I do agree, it's right that they are able to feel the emotions they have; I did like Mrs F's suggestion of angry hands for this - acknowledging that he is allowed to feel what he's feeling, and showing him a way to deal with it...

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TwigTwoolett · 11/10/2006 19:46

I've twisted nothing

your child hits .. you carry him up to bedroom and say no hitting .. and then you join in with some big explanation about feeling cross and fun hitting cushions games

no?

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 20:30

Well, I feel that it is a very simplistic view of 'discipline' when dealing firmly but kindly with a problem = 'attention' = bad

I 'discipline' my child in many ways:

by showing him good ways to behave

helping him when he is having difficulties coping

distraction and humour when he is too young / tired / grumpy to be expected to behave any better

working on our good relationship so that he (often) wants to please me, and encouraging strong bonds with other adults and children in our community so that he shares my goal of being a well-liked and useful member of society in the first place.

To me all those things fall under discipline, and these methods are working well for me. To me, methods such as 'ignoring' and 'time out' seem crude tools to use for the long term goals of helping my child develop into a pleasant adult.

If I come home having had a crap day and stomp about in the kitchen, feeling grumpy and maybe being umpleasant in the process, which of the following are going to help me behave (and feel) better?

a) dp ignoring me

b) dp getting cross and ticking me off

c) dp saying something like "OK love, I can see you're cross but come on, don't take it out on us. Now what's up? Shall I get you a drink? Tell me what's made you feel like this."

Sunnysideup, I take on board what you are saying about needing something very firm and directive to stop this behaviour when your usual methods fail. Does physically removing him from the situation have any effect? Not as time out but to stop the situation escalating, and to give you a chance to speak to him very firmly in private?

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 20:44

Franny, most often the 'situation' IS in private, it's when it's just me or just my mum looking after him, so having a word in private isn't difficult!

I totally agree with what you say about 'discipline' and I'd say my approach with my ds is so like yours, that it's spooky! It's just that these moments when I stop him lashing out and have a word about it, aren't actually stopping him doing it - he stops at that moment if I am very firm and stern with him; but it isn't sinking in...he still does it the next time he feels angry....

I hae tried many ways as I said earlier of distracting him or diverting the hitting to other objects, but there are times when he quite simply hits me because he wants to; and he literally followed my mum from room to room today to continue thumping her. My mum btw is a VERY nurturing gran, very creative with him, who will also have tried everything as regards distraction etc when he started the anger.....

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 20:47

he's a very determined boy

I do want to be open minded to other strategies but I am the strategy queen when it comes to my ds and I really think we have tried and tried....I thought of 'time out' as it's so DEFINITE. He has always responded really well to strongly defined boundaries.

If there are other ways though that would be great, as have only used time out with ds a handful of times and haven't had to for ages......

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 21:39

Hmm, well, I think if you feel Time Out would work well for the reasons you have described, then go for it. I just dislike it as the default answer to all unwanted behaviour.

Obviously you can't have situations where he is following your mum around hitting her. I think in that situation I would also be looking for something very clear to stop it in its tracks there and then.

But also keep the long term in mind - this behaviour is not acceptable, but he is still fairly young and has lots of time to learn different ways to behave. I am not suggesting you ignore it or gloss over it, but I am not convinced many of us can put our hands up and say that we always behave reasonably, and without hurting others, when angry . I would keep on plugging away at it and use the strategies we have discussed, with the aim of getting this behaviour to stop as he matures. He does not necessarily have the self control to stop himself right now, so I wouldn't count him trying it again as a failure.

I would also be wondering if there was anything I could do to help him from becoming so angry, so often. Maybe there isn't, but I would be thinking about it. What sets him off, do you know? Certain situations, being tired, being hungry? Or does it seem fairly random?

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 21:47

I don't want to give the impression that he does this hitting when he is REALLY angry - this morning he elbowed me when he felt I shouldn't remind him (politely!) to flush the loo after he'd used it!! It is sometimes when he gets very angry but Franny he doesn't get like that very often - he seems to do it now as a reflex response and that worries me....

but thank you for your re-assurance - he is still very young and you're right, it may well be that my usual approaches will pay off in the end. I really want to avoid using time out as have hardly ever done it and don't want to do it now when he will probably remember it and ask me about it for ever more in front of my interfering MIL "Why do you shut me in my room alone, mummy?"

I think you have given me the impetus to carry on for a while yet before I confine the child to barracks with no rations....

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 22:11

I noticed that ds's hitting increased (or maybe even started?) around the time that we were experimenting / drifting into the type of discipline that goes along the lines of

"If you......(undesirable behaviour) then I will......(punishment)".

It was very logical to me, that if we showed him the way to stop undesirable behaviour is to do something that the person doesn't like, that he would find hitting a good strategy to use himself when we did something that he didn't like (seeing as how he can't take away our toys, or stop us having ice cream, or whatever ways we might think of to control his behaviour).

It doesn't sound like you use that sort of discipline, though. We never intended to, but we sort of got sucked into it, and it definitely led to this sort of reaction from ds. Have you read Alfie Kohn's book about Punishments and Rewards, which suggests that artificial reward schemes such as sticker charts etc can also have a detrimental effect on behaviour? I am not suggesting that this is causing your challenges with your ds, but it sounds like you are coming from the sort of philosophy where you would find it an interesting read.

I think it is a 'reflex response' in many of us to lash out when we are feeling cross or upset. I know it is something I still struggle with and from reading on MN I know that I am not alone Please try not to find it worrying to see this in your otherwise gorgeous 4 year old.

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MrsApron · 11/10/2006 22:24

nods along with Franny and finally trots off to buy that book cos if then is happening too often in this house.

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 22:26

Oh golly I really don't want to suggest that book will solve anyone's problems. It seems to raise more questions than it answers, judging by threads on here! But it is a very thought provoking read and I found it both challenged and inspired me.

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MrsApron · 11/10/2006 22:31

tnh franny it fits in with the rest of my parenting library, sears deb jackson et all. i am currently slightly struggling with a 2.5 year old with "selective hearing" who uses distraction techniques on me to continue on her merry way.

i think i need some fresh inspiration, am not used to her not just going along with me really!

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Sunnysideup · 11/10/2006 22:34

thanks for your support with this Franny...you're right, I have worked bloomin' hard to avoid using formal 'discipline' with him, and I feel we do have a profoundly close bond partly because of this.

and anyway, tomorrow is another day!! Lets see how it goes! Thanks again.

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FrannyandZooey · 11/10/2006 22:34

Try "The Social Toddler" as well MrsA - a lovely child centred book.

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MrsApron · 11/10/2006 22:37

thnaks for that.

trots off to amazon...

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sorrell · 11/10/2006 22:42

I agree with Twiglett actually. I think you must have zero tolerance for hitting. There is no evidence that acting out anger (eg hitting cushions) makes it dissipate - quite the contrary actually. Studies show it makes anger worse. Distraction (humour, music, TV, reading, a walk) works for bad moods, but for actual physical violence I think you need to go straight to time out, no attention, no chat no nothing. Yes, it's fine to feel all the emotions, including anger, but hitting has to be totally unacceptable.

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TwigTwoolett · 12/10/2006 06:46

they're 4 not adults

yes explain feelings .. yes empathise and demonstrate good behaviour, distract, enjoy your children

but small children get confused by too many words ..they are plainly NOT adults ... SOMETIMES they need to know that action causes reaction .. a reaction they don't like .. like mummy and daddy paying them no attention for a fixed amount of time

otherwise they get totally confused

I believe strongly you should set clear parameters of acceptable behaviour that your children understand INSTANTLY .. with physicial violence being at the outside and being one thing that will always get the same clear reaction .. and you will have a child who isn't confused and understands

TBH I am surprised that a 4 year old will lash out physically, I would be quite surprised by a 3 year old doing it .. he obviously doesn't understand the boundaries and it will take a long time to gently talk / coax him out of it

I would STRONGLY SUGGEST a hit results in NO HITTING (stern voice) and time out for 4 minutes

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Sunnysideup · 12/10/2006 10:26

Thanks everyone for thoughts - I totally agree, he must be shown that while he is allowed to feel all the natural human feelings, he mustn't hit. It's just how I go about this isn't it!

Will let you know how it goes...and thanks again everyone.

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Sunnysideup · 24/10/2006 10:22

just in case anyone interested in an update; the day after my last post, Friday 13th, DS hit out at me again (not hard, just kind of 'this is what I do when I disagree with you') and my patience just WENT. I told him that in our house we do not hit eachother and that if he did hit he would have a minute on his own in his room.

Unfortunately I'm sure I dealt with it all wrong as was so cross, gave him time out there and then so hadn't given the poor boy a fair warning....and I don't believe in 'four minutes for a four year old' etc, I just gave him a minute.....

but it's worked. He has not hit me or my mum or in fact anyone since....and this is the result of one minute in his room. I have to say that this result speaks for itself; my instincts are all with Franny's, but I have to say that I do feel my DS desperately needed me to draw a line and to be firmer and more directive with him.

Obviously this isn't long, only a couple of weeks but he had been lashing out a few times a DAY up till that day...no hitting at all since.

My DH wonders why I agonise and he has told me a few times that though it's something that goes against my instincts as a woman and a mum, boys actually NEED firm boundaries firmly applied. As well as being a boy himself (!) he has worked for 13 years in a boys' school so I trust his take on things.

In case anyone's still interested!

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