everyone is telling me to bite him back...

[kitbit]

This is a bit long, but am desperate to find an answer to this one so want to give all the info possible! Thanks in advance kind mumsnetters for reading.
At the risk of starting another mudslinger thread, am hoping some wise mums may have some advice for me and my ds, 20mths. He discovered that biting someone at nursery made them take their hand off the toy he wanted to play with. Whoopee, result. Now he keeps doing it. He occasionally does it at home and we have tried:
time out/chill out space/whatever you want to call it but = removing him from fun activity and expressing disapproval. This seems to have the most effect but clearly the effect is not permanent or even cumulative
sterm firm voice and scary face, eye contact etc
mummy bursting into tears
baby sign language to try and get across the idea of pain
ignoring (clearly not going to work)
working on positives ie sharing/taking turns/giving/gently playing all of which he does beautifully most of the time except that occasionally he just forgets it all and goes back to biting
rationalising it (tricky explaining to toddler who only has 10 words or so and who doesn't yet get abstract concepts)
turning biting into kissing instead
He hardly does it at home any more but still does it at nursery at least a few times a week and they have told us we have to deal with it. (They use the thinking chair which he refuses to sit on.)
Here's the question: everyone I have asked including friends with babies, parents, mum's friend who was a nursery school teacher about 15 years ago...all have said that when he bites me I should bite him back. They all say "oh yes, my son/daughter bit someone once and I bit them back. I cried for hours after I did it but it was worth it, they never did it again." ???!!! For me personally this feels all wrong and doesn't suit my parenting style but EVERYONE is telling me it's the only thing left to try and I must do it. I am not one to usually bend to pressure over my parenting choices but am really feeling the push from all and sundry including the nursery whose next step may well be to ask us not to bring ds any more which would be a disaster not least as he really loves playing with all his little friends there and is otherwise the sweetest, happiest, kindest most affectionate lovely little boy, which incidentally is freely acknowledged by the nursery.
HELP there must be something else? There MUST be. Anyone?

[nearlythree]

Please don't bite him. As you say, he is too little to understand. Just repeat, repeat, repeat what you are doing - it's getting results for yoy at home. With respect to the nursery, if he is doing it there rather than at home then you can't sort it as he will have forgotten all about it by the time you get to him. If their 'thinking chair' doesn't work then they will have to come up with something else.

[SpaceCadet]

biting is mormal at this age, toddlers get fristrated and as they cant get their point across, sharp teeth come into play, your ds is far to young to understand that biting hurts others so please dont bite him back, it will hurt him, he will be upset and wont understand why mummy has just hurt him, also, at 20 months your ds is too young to sit on the thinking chair, all you can do is keep saying "no" firmly if you catch him doing it and the same at nursery, he will grow out of it, 2 of my children were biters but it was shortlived.

[SpaceCadet]

*frustrated

[Tommy]

I tried to bite DS1 back once but he thought it was funny I just couldn't bite him hard enough to inflict enough pain to get the message across so I never tried again.
I always did the same thing - got down to his level, held his arms and said "No biting" very firmly 2 or 3 times if necesary.
It is a phase and they do grow out of it but I think if you bite him back then the message you are giving is that it's OK to bite.

[Donk]

They're all different - the most effective tactic I found with my ds was (when possible) just to move sharpish out of the way and avoid the bite - and ignore the attempt otherwise. If he succeeded , ignoring it still worked best......not that I always managed this - it bloody hurt!
But the more reaction ds got, the more he did it!
He very rarely bites now, just grew out of it....

[1Baby1Bump]

ds bites. he is 13months. my mum said, whose arms are black and blue from him, the only way is to bite him.

i said no. no one is biting him. i just tell him it hurts mummy when he bites and i dont like it and remove his mouth from me at the same time.
he soon gives up.

[1Baby1Bump]

agree with donk.
although if he gets me good, sometimes i 'ouch' a bit tooloudly and he looks upset then stops for a bit.
maybe make it clear it really hurts?

[acnebride]

I'm another who believes they grow out of it - keep doing what you're doing - ds did it a LOT though only to us - a combo of 'no biting' and otherwise immediate ignoring did reduce the incidence of it. Have a search on here under 'biting' to find out just how many people have to deal with it!

This cannot be the only time nursery have dealt with this. I would call a meeting with them and say that you are not prepared to bite him and what other ideas do they have? Show that you are taking it seriously, but you are allowed to set your own boundaries, you really are. Power to your elbow.

[Cailyn3]

I agree, don't bite back - keep with the saying "We don't bite, we kiss" thing and time outs, it'll pass eventually - I had this for nearly two years before my ds1 grew out of it, he was kicked out of a baby club over it. Nothing seemed to work with him and I had all sorts of complaints about it. It really got sorted with a lot of help from my ds1's carer at pre-school when he first started there (I had to warn her what he was like). Her brilliant idea was that he only went to pre-school for forty minutes at a time. We told him he could stay longer if he didn't bite and was nice to others, and eventually upped the time he could stay due to good behaviour, and they made it clear why he was allowed to stay longer. He had such a good time there that he stopped biting altogether in order to stay longer until he was there all morning. If he loves pre-school so much, and bites there the most, maybe something similar would work for you too?

[themoon66]

My DS once bit someone at nursery. They didn't make a fuss but just informed me what had happened. I didn't make a fuss. I didn't hear any more about it.

Please don't bite him back. Just play it down.

On the other hand, my horse bit me as I fastened the girth and i bit his ear really hard. He never bit me again.... but he is a horse not my son.

[musicbugs]

I had a biter too. My dd went through a phase of it and I was completely at a loss. Tried everything, got lots of advice, waited for it to pass, but she kept on doing it to me and evryone around her.

One day, she bit me on the hand and I decided to deliberatley 'over react' by screaming in pain and collapsing to the floor. I stayed there quite a while and cried and made a fuss and cradled my hand and bless her - she was mortified. She had been doing it to create an effect, but wasn't quite expecting the one she got from me. It never happened again to me or anyone else - and we were welcomed back to play group with open arms!

basically lots of advice on here, but every child is different and will react to differnt things.

Wouldn't advise biting back though

[Orinoco]

Message withdrawn

[cowmad]

I had one too!!
agrre wi musicbugs
encourage the "sympatico" side of your ds exagerating the hurt feeling,big time ,will defo help..that an growing out of it when one of his peers bites back!!!please not you tho!!

[Jimjams2]

they've told you YOU have to deal with it? How can you with a 20 month old. He's too young to be reasoned with after the event in any meanigful way- THEY have to deal with it at nursery for goodness sake- I supect he's too young for the thinking chair as well, that's clearly not working so they have to change their strategy- I suspect to something more immediate.

We had some scratching go on at nursery (and home) for a while. joint effort- in each case he was told "no" turned around, so he was effecitvely being ignored. That worked in a few weeks- although at 20 months it can take time.

If nursery cannot cope with a 20 month old who is biting (and therefore ask you not to bring him) they have no business being in the profession. Sorry its all normal behaviour for this age, and they should be able to deal with it.

[nearlythree]

Well said jimjams!

[PinkTulips]

dd is 19 months and tries biting sometimes. she gets an immediate 'NO dd, you DON'T bite mommy/daddy' in a very stern voice with a cross face. then when she looks up we say 'mommy/daddy likes it when you hug me, can i have a hug from dd?' this way she gets the message but we don't end on an angry note. she rarely does it now unles she's teething and cross.

PMSL at a thinking chair for a 20 month old btw!

[80sMum]

I totally agree with jimjams. It's the nursery's problem rather than yours. Surely they must have strategies for dealing with what is essentially normal toddler behaviour.

Definitely do not bite him back! If you do bite him, he's getting completely the wrong message. It's as if you're saying 'biting is OK because Mummy does it!'

What the nursery should do is 'shadow' him at play and the very second that he bites someone, remove him without conversation and without eye contact from whatever play situation he was in. Just the word 'no' said firmly (but not harshly) and the complete withdrawal of attention, will be sufficient to make him realise he has made an error of judgement!

Depending on his level of understanding, the 'no' could be accomanied by a set phrase said every time, such as 'biting hurts! We don't hurt people here.' If this is always done every time he bites, it will eventually become wearysome for him and he'll stop biting in order to be able to continue playing.

The absolute key though is consistency. The same outcome has to happen every single time he bites - and this could be dozens of times in a day. This approach can be very labour intensive because it needs a nursery assistant to be at his side constantly all day, every day, until the biting stops, but it will work.

[merlotmama]

Amazingly, I remember my GP telling me that he bit his child back! It's a bit worrying when professionals are so off-beam.
Biting gets lots of nurseries very agitated...not just because they don't like the children getting hurt but mainly because they don't want to have to deal with other parents complaining.
Biting is so common at that age... the nursery must have had experience of biting before. They should have a discpline policy...you could ask to see it, although it sounds as if it wouldn't be up to much if they think a naughty chair is a good idea at that age!
There is no way you can deal with behaviour in nursery...any strategies have to be applied a.s.a.p. for any child but absolutely instantly for someone as young as that. It is the nursery's problem and they should deal with it.
80's mum is spot on with her advice and it sounds as if the nursery could do with hearing it too.
Good luck and try not to feel pressured by anyone else...my friend had to suffer the disapproval of other mums at playgroup when she wouldn't smack her child for hitting other children, but she stuck to her guns. Only do what you are comfortable with.

[Chandra]

Have a question for you all, how do you deal whe the same child in nursery has been biting your child at least 3 times a month for 2 years? is it still a phase? (just wondering if I should remove DS from the nursery before the other kid swallows his arm!)

[kitbit]

Thanks so much for the great replies and for the reassurance and moral support. dh and I had another chat about it last night and agreed that we will not be biting him no matter what, and that there is a long way to go before we get to the end of everything we can try so we will keep going with it and hopefully he will get the message and grow out of it.

Agree that the nursery are not doing as much as they could. We live in a remote village in Spain and sadly the nursery regs over here are not as good as UK - ratio of 1 member of staff to 12 children. Therefore it is just not possible for them to police ds as thoroughly as is needed. Also, having watched through the window yesterday for a10 mins or so I also feel that ds is not getting enough stimulation as most of the time is spent shepherding the group from one activity to the next and in the 15 mins it takes to do it some of the kids get bored and therefore narky. Could see it all brewing with several of them as I watched, all of the "bored" kids were the older kids in the group, including my ds. I brought it up with the nursery head but she just said that all nurseries in Spain are the same and while it's not ideal she cannot just magic another assistant out of thin air and she definitely cannot make sure that ds is under constant supervision.

We have considered taking ds out of nursery altogether but then he would have no playmates at all, as we don't live near any of his friends. Catch22 really, plus I don't want to take away the good side of his time there, which he does really really love. Plus he is socialising and learning spanish which otherwise would not happen.

Have suggested to them that they put their thinking chair in a space that is totally away from the group as at the moment it is right next to the play area and I think it's not working as ds doesn't feel "removed". When we remove him here I immediately take him into the hall, do the "no biting, biting hurts" routine and walk away. I know he won't stay there, but the immediate removal has given him the message. Staying there for a little moment to think about things and calm down comes later when he's older, I know. I think if nursery can more effectively remove him it might help.

Please keep the posts coming, it's so helpful and reassuring to hear your thoughts on this and hopefully it's helping some other poor mummies as well! thanks all

[Chandra]

I think nursery here with the ratios and early learning objectives is great, all my Spanish friends are very impressed whe we talk about it, but shocked when they learn we are paying 4-5 times what they pay for it

I think you should not remove him from the nursery, as you say the social aspect of it and the immersion in the language is very beneficial. Besides, the dinamics of relationships are very different over there and this is the perfect place to learn to manage in that environment. Now, as given a dose of your own medicine is still a very popular concept in most countries, I wouldn't be surprised if he comes one day with a worse bite than the ones he has inflicted and then it be the end of the phase.

We have not had the problem of bitting with DS but have had other ones and for the most difficult to tackle we got a bit extreme but worked. We have told him to stop or we will be back to home (when he seems more interested in staying) and if he continued, off we went, no matter if we were in the middle of a meal or had just paid for getting into the play area. we have only done it twice and that was the end of the story.

[ScummyMummy]

1 adult : 12 under 2s? That's ridiculous. Sorry- I would take him out till he's older, if you don't desperately need the childcare. That's a pathetic ratio and there is no way on earth they will be able to help him learn not to bite unless they can supervise him more closely. He doesn't need other kids at this age and their expectations are ludicrous. I think he would be better off out of there, from what you've said.