Is my 2 3/4 year old "behind"

[Namelessonsie]

This preschool checklist has me worried.

My DD is massively resistant to toilet training (shouts NO a lot)

Massively resistant to being shown how to hold a pen or scissors properly (shouts NO a lot) - and holds a crayon like fucking squiglet. cbeebies has a lot to answer for on this one...

Massively resistant to using cutlery unless it is the only way to ingest eg super sugary petit filous

Massively resistant to dressing/undressing herself (Mummy do it!)

Avoids other children rather than plays/interacts with them. This one is actually a real worry to me.

I do try, but get stressed in the face of such resistance.

She is however extremely verbal, knows her numbers to 20, some letters, shapes including hexagon, octagon etc, all the planets, and can recognise a space shuttle from a soyuz rocket.

She is also possibly on the autistic spectrum, but not diagnosed just something a child psychologist mentioned.

So, do I worry, or just think she'll get it in time for school!

[Ferguson]

Why let her SHOUT anything, especially "No"? You are supposed to be in charge of her - not the other way round. How have you let it get to this stage?

How she holds implements probably isn't critical yet.

Make potty fun; I always used to read to DS when he was little.

Is 'super sugary petit filous' really a good dietary item?

Dressing: she is obviously very clever, as she has you sussed out and under her control.

[NormHonal]

As the parent of a child of a similar age I offer a more sympathetic view than Ferguson! My DC2 is lovely much of the time, but also prone to shouting "no" and not wanting to get dressed/undressed.

I've sat down with his designated person from nursery and it's all perfectly normal.

Mumsnet is the only place I know where children don't eat sugary stuff like petits filous. I live in a generally well-educated, affluent community. and I call bullshit

The shapes and numbers stuff sounds wonderful - what a clever girl you have!

If you're worried about autism - have you seen someone about it?

Otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much. My DC1 didn't get potty training until well past 3yo and started school fine. Is she already at pre-school? Peer pressure helps too.

[BarbaraPalmer]

LOL @ "Why let her SHOUT anything, especially "No"?"

seriously? how can you stop a child from shouting?

I think some kids just have a defiant phase. DD1 was not one of them. DD2 most definitely is. It'll pass.

[AryaOfHouseSnark]

one of my Dts shouted NO most days from the age of 2-3.
They weren't potty trained till 3, before then they didn't want to.
Neither really like drawing, the correct pencil grip doesn't always come till 3 - 4 anyway.
She sounds fine to me, although I am not an expert, just a Mum. If you're worried about Autism I would speak to someone who knows what they're talking about.

[hotcrosshunny]

Have you a toddler Ferguson?

Judging by your answer I'm guessing not and not recently either.

Don't show her how to hold a pen - model how to hold and she will copy. (I don't remember that being on the 2 year check - not on mine, only mark making)

What do you mean by avoiding other children? Is this in playgroups? Most kids don't play with others until about 3 onwards.

My dd (2.3) shouts no a lot and hits. Just like her older brother did. He's fine now, very polite.

[Sid77]

Calm down ferguson! I'd be a bit worried if a nearly three year old didn't shout every now and then I wouldn't worry - IMO everything is about power at that age and things need to come from them. For example always put cutlery out for her to use if she chooses, let her see you using yours, maybe other friends using theirs, she will decide herself to use it soon enough. I got mine to put his own socks in by doing it wrong "No mummy, they don't go on my feet! They go like this..." Lots of things they will learn at preschool too (playing with others, cutting with scissors) and you can build on that in time.

[Namelessonsie]

Not at pre school yet - I'm on maternity leave so she's not in any childcare.

I would love to see Ferguson with my child! I am most definitely in charge of her, but unless you would like me to employ gaffa tape (very tempted some days) there is no way you can stop her. She is an incredibly strong willed streak of stubborn wilfullness.
I do agree that petit filous are not great, which is why she's only had them every couple of months - and why they are such a treat that she will actually use cutlery to eat them! I normally give her natural yoghurt.

Making potty fun... hmm well I have tried, books, cbeebies, allowed to play games on Mummy's phone, outright bribery of sweeties (not normally allowed AT ALL), and even a go on a potty that plays a tune when you pee in it. I'm beat. She went on it for 2 days, then refused on day 3 and 4. And tonight - day 5 - although I put her back in nappies to take her to toddler group. Yes I have tried the toilet.

Trying to get her to do something she doesnt want to do means she throws herself to the groun d howling or twists and turns, kicking etc if you are trying to eg dress her/put her on a toilet against her will. And a tantrum can last until 3am or beyond. I am sooooo not exaggerating. And that can't be healthy for anyone.

In a battle of wills with this toddler you will always lose.... In fact if you've entered a battle of wills you have already lost - I try to pick my battles without ever letting her cross boundaries - so things like knife and fork and pen holding have not been one of the battles I felt I needed to do!

Maybe I was wrong, so go ahead Ferguson and tell me what a crap parent I am.

[99redbafoons]

She sounds just like my 2.10 DS!

Ferguson, what a weird post.

[Namelessonsie]

oops spent so long typing that out there were lots more replies!

Thank you other posters :)

Yes we model using cutlery and always lay her place.

She can draw faces with two eyes and a smile, write "w" "s" and "x", just holds it at the wrong end!

She will do more undressing etc for DP and is much less defiant with him.

[Namelessonsie]

Sid77 - nice idea, thank you - will try that. It is too easy to be ground down with the daily defiance (just fucking DO it) mentality :)

[addictedtosugar]

OK, DS2 is a month or 2 older than your DD.

He has fist grip with pens / crayons, but enjoys scribbling. Not tried him with scissors recentally.

Shouts "NO" or "NOT FAIR" fairly often - apparently its not fair his older brother can run faster....

Will make attempts at getting dressed / undressed by himself, but looks a state when he does it. I had both kids in fits of giggles this evening. They wanted to be held upside down, so I turned them over and pulled their trousers off as they crawled away. They then put them back on, and came back for more . The will also show me how to do it right, if I try and put e.g. trousers over their head. Can you turn clothes into a game??

Is out of nappies, but I probably get wet clothes back from nursery 0-2 times a week.

Uses cutlery, but prefers fingers.

Is quite good with other kids.

Knows numbers to about 12, never taught letters, but he may know some, knows limited shapes and colors. Can recognise the sun and the moon.

So, similar in some areas, better in some areas, way behind in others.

I think he's brighter than his older brother, who is doing just fine in reception, or rather the teacher has no complaints.

So, I think you should join me on the non worrying bench. Presumable she isn't starting preschool til Sept at the earliest??? Thats 5 months away. A lifetime in a small persons experiences.

[Namelessonsie]

Thank you, that's reassuring.

The avoiding other children is at toddler groups and playdates. She will actively avoid where they are playing - I think because she gets very possessive over the toys she is playing with. This is partially where the "autistic" comment came from - she really has absolutely no interest in other children or babies - although she is starting to interact occasionally with DD2 (5 months) if I ask her to. Really will not play with other children and gets distressed if they get too close etc.

In fact today she ran across the room and threw herself to the floor about 5 times because other adults and children actually spoke to her. (In case Ferguson is mentally tutting I didn't encsourage this but waited for her to compose herself silently, then offered a hug). But it was very noisy and she finds it very difficult to cope in noisy situations.

[Namelessonsie]

Oh and yes September, but I'm worried she wont cope with the business/noise/other children. She previously went to a childminders.

[addictedtosugar]

What happens if its just one other child?
I remember DS1 getting very obsessive over his toys, maybe around age 2?? When friends came round (my friends, with kids of a similar age), we would put some toys away upstairs, and he had to share the rest.

If Preschool is anything like ours, its got to be chaos (90 reception kids, and 40 preschoolers in one open area ) Will you get chance to talk to the teachers before stating? The teachers will, i think, come to our house near the end of term to meet DS2, and chat to me. That might be the time to share your concerns.

You know preschool isn't compulsory, don't you? Will you be going back to work? Or would it be possible to maybe work up form 2 sessions a week to a full 5 sessions if thats what you want?

[hotcrosshunny]

My dd doesn't like sharing. But she is 2!

[Namelessonsie]

Yeah we put "special" toys away. She will take turns but still wont really interact with a visiting child. Even one. She also gets very upset if I move her toys and will put them back where she left them. She is very good about putting them back in the right boxes without being asked though so it is really just one of her "things".

I know preschool isn't compulsory but everyone keeps telling me I should send her!

I want to go back to work but my employer (secondary school) have said they can't accommodate my part time hours request - and last time I was on a 50% timteable spread over 4 days in both week 1 and week2, with my day off different in each week - so 5 full days of childcare for 50% pay. Can't afford that wth 2 in childcare.

[TheFabulousIdiot]

Agree Ferguson's post is just weird.

My over three year old spent three days in London shouting 'no'.

DS still doesn't hold a pen 'right' and was almost three before he stopped peeing his pant, in fact he still does sometimes.

[BoffinMum]

1-2-3 Magic is often recommended for parents ground down by their children's refusal to do reasonable things (I had one of those, btw he has grown out of it now and is very reasonable!)

[MrsAtticus]

It all sounds perfectly normal. My 3 year old is not yet potty trained, is worryingly skilled with a pair of scissors but doesn't hold a pen properly, can do vests but struggles with other items, so not much further on than yours really. Also I think at that age it is not particularly unusual for them to not like playing with other children.
There is a huge range of normal (I say this as a parent and someone with some professional experience as well).

[WaveorCheer]

I'm not sure we should be reassuring the OP too readily that all is typical if a child psychologist has flagged up potential autism. Can you say more about the context of the remark, please, OP?

[SantasLittleMonkeyButler]

Your DD sounds very similar to my DD - who is 2 years 8 months.

I would love to know how you actually stop a 2 year old shouting .

[Namelessonsie]

The psychologist was a friend visiting, so no not formal. She likes to spin a lot, gets obsessive over things such as space/rockets, and is very serious/intense a lot of the time.

Thank you everyone, and I will look into 123 magic. I do find counting to 5 helps us both - in fact she sometimes asks me to count to 5 if I have forgotten :)

[Namelessonsie]

Santas - I really would love to try gaffa tape!

[DeWe]

My DD is massively resistant to toilet training (shouts NO a lot) Lots aren't toilet trained at 2 3/4. Those who trained at 3yo, and even 4yo were as fine as others by school age.

Massively resistant to being shown how to hold a pen or scissors properly (shouts NO a lot) - and holds a crayon like fucking squiglet. cbeebies has a lot to answer for on this one...
Ds refused to hold it properly until he was at school, and really into year 1. the more preschool tried to get the correct position, the further up the pencil he held it. So when he went to school he held it at the end in a full fist grip. He holds it fine now, and has lovely handwriting (year 2)

Massively resistant to using cutlery unless it is the only way to ingest eg super sugary petit filous The only one of mine interested in cutlery at this age was dd2. She was determined to show that she could do it, the other two weren't bothered.

Massively resistant to dressing/undressing herself (Mummy do it!) Ds' ideal, even now, would be me dressing him while he continues with what he is doing. He can do it, but really he'd choose to go to school in pyjamas to save himself the hassle if I let him.

Avoids other children rather than plays/interacts with them. This one is actually a real worry to me. At that age they're still socially playing alongside at best rather than playing with. No worries

So, do I worry, or just think she'll get it in time for school! I suspect she will.
I find making a game of it often works well. "I don't expect I'll find that food eaten/you dressed etc. when I come back", or "Can you eat it all/get dressed before I count to 10?"