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Behaviour/development

Please please advise on child at group who scratches and hits constantly

66 replies

someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:00

I have changed name for this. I am involved with a toddler group and an 18 m old there is constantly hitting and scratching other children, usually younger ones who are at floor level. Obviously this is upsetting for everyone. Child's mother asked me for advice before she brought the child to the group, and I advised her to follow her dd everywhere and physically stop her before she can do it. This is not happening. Mother is chatting to someone else and the little girl wanders off and hurts another child. Other mothers in tears - one little girl was hurt 4 times in one session with dreadful scratches on her face, one scratch near her eye.

I spoke to the mother again about making sure she is with her daughter and she said she doesn't need to be right next to her, because she can tell when she's going to do it, but that she wasn't watching at that particular moment. She also said "And I take her off into the corner when she has done it" (Time Out style, and she also speaks to her firmly and tells her not to do it)

I don't think this is working and I want to ring her and say that she needs to stay right next to her daughter and prevent this happening until this stage has passed. Is this a reasonable request? Has anyone any other ways of dealing with it? Thanks so much in advance, I am feeling very upset and stressed by the whole situation and don't want to make things worse, but feel that it's impossible as it is. I understand she probably cannot stop every single scratch or bite, but I saw it happen 4 times myself and I was only in the room for about 10 minutes.

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sparklemagic · 15/07/2006 11:13

I think this is pretty clear cut actually - you stated from the outset that this mum should be with her daughter at all times, presumably she agreed. When you talk to her about it she then says she "doesn't need to be right next to her"....ermm, I think she does, as it's what you agreed!

i do agree, even if she is there all the time, kids can sometimes lash out at the speed of light so one or two scratches might still occur but it should stop the majority of it happening.

I would ring her and just remind her that at the outset it was agreed that she would be with her dd all the time. I would make it a supportive thing, perhaps say that it's just until this phase passes as you are sure it will...is there anything that the staff or other parents could do to help...etc.....

I would also say that she needs to have a clearer path of consequences for her DD. The first incident, time out in the corner, as she already does. Teh second, perhaps time out in the corridor or outside the building, and the third, she must be taken home.

How does that sound? btw I would confirm this in writing to her, just to remind her of what you are requesting, as it's easy to forget details of a phone call, specially if she does feel a bit 'challenged'.

I think present it as you working your socks off to keep her DD at the group and you will get her 'on-side'. good luck. It is worth tackling, other kids shouldn't be being injured like this at a playgroup.

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:35

Thanks for the reply - it's perhaps not as clear cut as that because when she rang me I just advised her as to what I thought she should do - there was no 'agreement' really that this was what was going to happen. I think she is going to be upset / angry when I speak to her about it.

I am not sure about the consequences thing for an 18 m o - I admire her for trying to tackle it, but the time out thing doesn't seem to be having an effect (yet). I would think physically preventing her from doing it, every time, (or as near to every time as possible) might be the only answer for such a young child. The time out thing just seems to be upsetting her, which in turn is upsetting the other children (in addition to all the crying caused by the scratching etc). It's really disrupting the group.

I did already ask if there was anything we could do to help, but I think she feels she is dealing with it just fine. I will ask again. I do genuinely want to help her remain at the group, but more than that I want to prevent any more children from being injured.

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sparklemagic · 15/07/2006 11:45

ooh, sorry hadn't registered the child is only 18 months, ignore the time out bit.

In that case of course she needs to be with her dd ALL the time! There's no way round it I guess, you'll just have to remind her to be there to as you say physically stop it happening every time....

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:45

Oh, pleeeeease, come and give me your advice, ladies



I am so stressed about this

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:47

Oh sorry, sparkle, cross posts

So do you feel TO is not very effective for an 18 m o? She is taking her off in a corner and having a serious talk with her each time, which makes her dd cry.

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:49

And what shall I do if she carries on getting distracted and chatting? The group is quite a long session, I don't personally think she will be able to keep her attention on her dd for the whole period. This is going to blow up if it carries on like this, and I think others are going to stop attending. The same little girl got struck 4 times yesterday and her mother was very distressed.

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Chandra · 15/07/2006 11:53

I think too much lee way is given with the excuse of "being a phase", DS has been bitten repeatedly by the same child for 2 yrs now, last week the bite was so bad that DS ended up with a full denture printout that drew blood... Too bloody long for a phase I believe, felt like sending a letter asking mum to send his son to nursery with a mussle, not that I dare to do that of course, but I'm considering removing DS from the nursery as he gets bitten by same child once or twice a week! and yes, I worry how the conduct of the other child is affecting the behaviour of my already kind of shy boy. (yeah I know, irrelevant but needed to take it out of my chest )

So, in my current state of mind I agree with you, you have to have a very serious talk to the mum

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Chandra · 15/07/2006 11:56

I think the process, corner>corridor>take home is a good one, best thing is that just 3 kids are hurt before she has to take kid away. If the girl wants to stay I guess she may behave... with time.

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Squarer · 15/07/2006 11:59

Toddler groups can be full of stresses can't they?
In would honestly be tempted to say to the mother you must stay with your DD to ensure she does not hurt any more children or not attend.
Quite simply, why should anyone else suffer?

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Squarer · 15/07/2006 12:00

In? I!

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 12:13

I just feel this is going to cause serious ructions however I play it

The mother is quite rightly very popular with many of the other parents. She is a lovely person. I know it sounds pathetic but I could see this causing a rift and people taking sides within the group. Everything gets repeated second and third hand in this sort of situation

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Squarer · 15/07/2006 12:34

It is a difficult situation and I do feel for you. One of my friends that I go to playgroup with has a little boy who is... should we say a handful? He went to a different playgroup with his grandma on another day. Grandma was told not to bother bringing him back.
This has had a knock on effect. Suddenly mum has found endless ways to control his difficult behaviour. It is like a miracle has happened. She had the kick up the bum she needed (in the nicest possible way).
People will only take sides over a problem if there is a problem. The mother needs to realise the problem lies firmly with her IMO.

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NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 16:22

Ok, thanks to the co-op, I'm essentially "working" with kids only a bit older than this.

I think the current policy we have about scratching is to:

a) respond immediately. If you respond even a minute later, it's really too late for an 18-month-old.

b) get the toddler to apologise. In our group, to apologise, the aggressor gently strokes the victim on the cheek. This works better than a hug, as lots of toddlers hug too hard or too much. And a hug might well frighten the victim anyway. (I'm using aggressor/victim as shorthand, obviously, out of laziness.) To get the aggressor to stroke the victim, often an adult needs to stroke the aggressor on the cheek first. This reminds them that gentle touches are nice, and feel nice.

c) Give a warning, on the first incident, and remove the child from whatever the struggle was about. (Was child scratching in order to get an object? They don't get the object, etc etc)

d) Watch closely to work out what the triggers are. Is it frustration? Jealousy? What? See if you can remove the triggers.

It is a phase, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck for everyone around them.

Our new nursery leader is absolutely incredible at managing troups of children of this age, I'm convinced that getting to work with her from time to time is a very big benefit of the co-op. I've seen such improvements in parenting techniques, and I'm really hoping mine will improve, too.

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 16:55

Right, there doesn't seem to be any triggers, nor do I think it's an act of aggression, necessarily. It seems to be her way of saying hello, or just an interesting thing to do to see what happens. She will spot a child, approach them, slowly and then, suddenly . She is very fast, but you can see it coming. There would be no problem stopping her if you were next to her and watching her.

I am not so much concerned with changing the behaviour of the child here, as that is not my job while her mother is in the group. I want to get the mother on side and working with the rest of us to make sure it doesn't happen any more. She's the only one who can follow her child about at the group and stop her - the rest of us have our own responsibilities.

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NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 17:46

Oh, we had a biter like that once, just totally out of nowhere random. Very frustrating.

Yeah, her mum has to be with her, I'm afraid. She will forget sometimes, but maybe you could remind her?

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NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 18:06

Really, the title should probably be "please advise on mum at group ...". Even though she's lovely, she's actually the problem, it seems.

(I too doubt that time out works as a punishment at this age. I would tend to leave the group suddenly, as a last resort, for bad behaviour, if this was my child.)

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sparklemagic · 15/07/2006 18:29

I wouldn't worry about the people in the group 'taking sides' etc- it must be dealt with otherwise other kids will stop coming which isn't fair!

I honestly think this mum needs to take the responsibility to be with her DD all the time. If it's difficult, maybe she needs to cut her attendance time down to an hour or something. It is possible to do this, I had to do it with my DS (ot because he had this issue, just that he was very clingy and got incredibly upset unless I was actively playing with him). It DOES put the stoppers on much adult interaction which is a shame for the mum but the playgroup is there mainly for the child to learn to interact, and this child simply needs more help than most. Her mum must be there!

Don't agonise too much, just approach her and I think as someone else said this may even be the impetus she needs to realise that she needs to address this with her DD more than she is. I do feel for you as it is hard on you - is there a 'committee' to back you up? Support from the other mums in the main?

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 18:34

No, there's just me. I wouldn't describe it as a playgroup really. It's a group where there are activities and the parents stay and take part, and there is some free time as well.

I have support from the mums whose children have been hurt, I think. Which is quite a few of them.

It's awkward, very awkward. A big part of the group is the social time for the parents. I think even if she makes the decision to concentrate just on her dd, she is going to find it hard because other people will keep talking to her. I wish this was not happening.

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southeastastra · 15/07/2006 18:38

have you tried telling the child off yourself, or have others? (have read thread but may have missed if you've mentioned that bit)

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someothermother · 15/07/2006 18:42

Yes I have tried, but only gently - she is very small and I don't want to frighten her. I think the best thing is for it to be consistent, ie always her mother. Her mother is also the best person to say how far the telling off should go.

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southeastastra · 15/07/2006 18:53

i agree her mother is, but if she isn't someone has to, if she's told off by someone else it may make her realise that it isn't acceptable. i know she is only little but she should understand no.

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MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 19:37

My 17 month old was biten badly on Monday at a toddler group - 3 bites that all drew blood, area swollen and bruised (all happened in a few seconds, I was only about 1.5 metres away). My son was extremely distressed. They took the mother to one side and told her to remain with her child at all times. The mother told me she had known that he has biten before.

At the end of the group another mother came forward and said her son was biten the previous week. They are giving her once last chance and then he will be stopped from coming to the group.

To be honest that is probably best for her sake. I accept that these things will happen sometimes. But they shouldn't happen twice. I am very angry as she doesn't discipline him. I don't know how I will react if it happens again, but it will probably end very badly for her. It's a different matter if you're the parent of the victim.

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januarymum · 15/07/2006 19:59

I would and have taken my dd (now 2yrs 5mth) out of playgroup activities if she has behaved like this. i have done this because she have pushed, hit other children in the group. timed out first time then taken home.

i have only had to do this 2, 3 times as she learnt that if she wants to go play with other children she has to behave.

I don't see why as someone who has asked for you help would be upset when you are now suggesting a new way of helping.

How about if you suggest that we try this approach for say the next 4 weeks.

  1. time out eg i would tell dd tell her that we don't hit/scratch then stand her facing the wall, with me standing by her after a minute i would say that we don't hit/scratch, then she could go and play.

  2. if it happened again then i would say again that we don't -- then take her home.

    i have to say take dd out away from all the fun seemed to have more of effect.

    she must understand that you and her have to have some responsilblties to all the children in the palygroup and not just hers.

    i hope that you can find someway of sorting this probelm out before the other parents stop thinking that she lovely, when her dc is always hurting theirs.
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tillibugger · 15/07/2006 20:03

My DS2 although not a biter is a nightmare at toddler groups and i need to follow him at all times, although this does not stop him getting the odd sly slap in in the tent, I am there to stop him doing any "real" damage as I can see it coming. He has started nursery recently and they do the same with him. At my request. Hope this helps

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southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:03

mumtoben threatening to expel (in effect) a mum and child from the group seems extreme to say the least! can you not help each other

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