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Behaviour/development

Holy Thursday Horror Story (very long)

102 replies

Caththerese1973 · 13/04/2006 17:10

HI
I'm not a big church-goer, as a rule, but recently I have reverted to my Catholic roots for a variety of reasons....anyway, point being, my 3 y/o DD were actuallly BOUNCED out of church tonight because of dd's behaviour. I guess she is is not blame: I hardly ever take her, but thought that this service might be interesting for her, as it is at the big city cathedral, and involves some lovely music and ritual.
Everything was okay at first: the choir began, she ballet-danced in the aisles ad charmed everyone....then became completely unruly: was running around all over the place, shouting, demanding that she have a 'seat of her own'. Ran up to a grotto dedicated to the Virgin and opened gate, I intervened and picked her up and took her back to her seat, and as I did so, she grabbed at my top and exposed my bra to practically whole congretation!
About ten mins after this I took her into the lobby. A male parishioner emerged and closed the church doors, and let me know that my dd was 'spoiling the mass for 300 people'. I thought, well, okay, at least I can stand outside and hear the singing and liturgy, and go in for communion. But dd was VERY cross at being shut out of mass: it was like some sort of metaphor for excommunication - she kept shouting: 'I don't WANT to be left out in the dark! I want to go inside again! I PROMISE I"ll be quiet!' etc, etc.
Grumpy male parishioner re-emerged (by this time I had made a 'tent' for myself and dd under blanket, and was trying to soothe her) and demanded to know 'what was going on' and 'why can't you control your child?"
I sort of lost it at this point and said, excuse me, why can't you control yourself? This is a Catholic church and one would imagine children are welcome...
Mr Grumpy more or less intimated that I ought to leave the premises altogether. I find it hard to believe that a bit of toddler grizzling could permeate ancient stone walls and solid wooden door of church. There were some other parents outside with toddlers, and they couldn't believe the way I was being talked to. I suspect my fairly obvious single mum status may have had something to do with it.
Made myself loook additionally ridiculous by walking off into the night and shouting at grumpy man that I would 'write to local Catholic newspaper' about his fascist attitude. And then (cringe! cringe!) 'I said to him: 'by the way, my name is DOCTOR Maslen' (this last because I graduated with my PhD a few weeks ago....this is the first time I have ever invoked the Dr thing in such a pompous and ridiculous way, and I feel really embarrassed). I felt he was deeming me to be shabby and inferior, a kind of blow-in, probably because of my clothes and evident lack of husband. I may have been a trifle paranoid.But even if I was a heoin addict mum (which I sort of look like at the moment, being rather thin and poor-looking), surely such draconian attitudes are not in the spririt of Christianity?
Anyway, dd continued to wail dismally all the way back to car, clearly feeeling that she was responsible, so I thought stuff it, I'll go back and have communion at least. I was allowed back into church for two seconds in order to get communion.
It was so sad because in her own way dd was really enjoying ceremony. Yes, Holy Thursday is a very solemn mass, but dd was dancing to the music, pretending to say prayers, was really interested in choir and the old building.
I remember when I was at Catholic school as a kid you could hardly even hear the priest talk over the wailing and antics of bored toddlers. Things seem to have changed.
I suppose at bottom of my heart though is concern for dd's unruliness. She will NOT listen to what I say, will not be reasoned with. I've tried various sorts of discipline, even bottom smacking (which I've now dropped). I am a single mother (since dd was 2) and a fairly unconventional person myself, so I can't help but have a bit of a twinkle in my eye when she violates the rules and regulations. But she is becoming known as a 'problem child' among friends and family. Won't share toys, pushes and shoves younger kids (gets on well with older ones though), has tantrums all the time, demands attention, won't let me talk to other adults if she is in the room (Ie 'mummy stop TALKING!" ) Toilet training has become a big battle and recently, on Dr's advice, I have decided to simply put her in pants, not pressure her and let her have accidents so she realises that there's a need for her to learn. Lots of cleaning up for me, though, and I'm run off my feet with work right now.
Guess there is not much routine in our lives: I managed to get a good teaching job at local uni but it doesn't start until end of July, and until then I am on single mum benefit (ex doesn't pay regular child support ...tells me to 'get a job'. I would do, if it wasn't so pointless....if I worked in a laundromat or whatever I'd have dd in daycare constantly and wouldn't have time to write my course for my uni gig). We are so poor right now, and as young as she is, I think she really feels it.
We are also stuck in a shite flat, no-where much to play: I have so much reading to do that a lot of the time DD is forced to watch TV/DVDs/videos. In fact she has become sick of TV: turns it off and plays rather sad little games all by herself. Is particularly fond of playing 'Katy and Cristian' (my best friend Katy is a mum of two with hubbie and 'normal' life).
DD is the loveliest child you could ever meet, inherently, and I'm sure when she is older she will be a really sweet person. But right now she's in the throes of full-on toddler egotism and embarrassing scenes occur on a daily basis in shops etc.
People seem to think she's out of control. By my standards, she's not really, but perhaps my standards are rather low?
And by the way, I'm not a religious nut or anything. I have tried to impart the positive aspects of my own Catholic upbringing without dwelling on scary or silly stuff. It is important to me that she has some intimation of there being beauty and meaning in life beyond the obvious.
Suggestions from Mums of famously unruly (and un-toilet-trainable_ tots would be appreciated.

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:14

If it's any consolation, when DS2 was two I had to take him out of a friend's daughter's christening ceremony because he was so noisy and disruptive - and he's the "easy" one of my three DSs!

Please don't let Mr Grumpy get to you. Remember that Jesus said, "Suffer [i.e. tolerate] the little children, and let them come unto me". By his actions he has shown himself to be no Christian.

Does your dd go to nursery yet?

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tissy · 13/04/2006 17:21

No suggestions on the behaviour, I'm afraid (I have one too), but think that you should copy this post in an email to the priest who was running the service- he may be far more sympathetic to you.

I once had cause to complain to a Cof E vicar when an old lady told me in Church that I had sat in "her" seat. I was new an not to know, and she made me feel really unwelcome.

The next time I went to the church the old lady cam eup and apologised!

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Issyfit · 13/04/2006 17:23

Hi CathTherese

I was brought up in a 'High Anglican' tradition and it is still where I feel most comfortable - beautiful music, liturgy, cerebral sermons and some sense of dramatic awe. I've tried to take the DDs (5 and 3) with me, but it has always turned into an absolute nightmare. Even if we spend the bulk of the service in some smelly and inadequate 'creche' facility, there is something about the repressive yet heightened emotional atmosphere of the Service that reduces them to absolute lunatics. In all honesty I think that 3 is just too young for that kind of service and that you were probably imposing unreasonable expectations on her to behave and you to control her for the duration of the service. Not that that's any excuse for the parishioner to be grumpy with you.

Just on the toilet training - there is so much pressure on you right now, why don't you give it a rest for a while and put her back into pull-ups (although they are fiendishly expensive)? That would give you some more time and energy to pick your battles on other issues.

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Trifle · 13/04/2006 17:31

There's another thread on here about unruly children in cinemas. I think that whatever the venue, be it a cinema, theatre, school play etc then unruly children should be removed. There are people who quite rightly do not welcome the distraction of a toddler running up and down and presumably in church it is a time for reflection and people want to listen to what the vicar has to say. My feelings are that, by all means take her but when she gets too bored then it is time to leave. If you go regularly enough then as time goes by she may be able to cope with longer periods in church. I think that because it is a church you expect people to be more accommodating but you wouldnt particularly want children running amok at the cinema even if you are watching a childrens film. I think you have answered your problem yourself about the lack of routine and the amount of time you have to spend on paperwork. Your daughter might be able to understand better if the days were more structured so that she knew for example that after lunch you have to do paperwork and so she gets to watch the telly. I have very specific times when the telly goes on and, as it hasnt been on constantly, I know that they will watch it and let me get on with my half hour of 'me' time.

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Moondog · 13/04/2006 17:33

It's not really about the church incident though is it?
It's about you feeling overwhelmed by your child and your responsibilities.

Are you in a SureStart area btw? I am (and am on the board) and child management training and support (Webster-Stratton) is offered to parents struggling like you.
My colleagues and parents who have participated absolutley rave about it.

Does your dd's father help out?
Family?

As an aside (and as a fairly regular chapel goesr) I think it is reasonable to expect a child who is disturbing the peace esp. at this very important time to be taken out.
I do the same with my own when they kick off.

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DumbledoresGirl · 13/04/2006 17:34

Sorry, I had to laugh at the beginning of your post, espeically at the exposing of your bra to virtually the whole congregation! Wouldn't life be simpler without kids, but wouldn't there be less to laugh at too? Grin

Your dd does sound a handful and I do think the Maundy Thursday Mass may not perhaps be the most suitable one to take a three year old to, but nevertheless, you were appallingly treated by a supposed fellow Christian! It was such a shame that your experience was so negative and I think you should make it known to the priest that this was your experience. As a fellow occasional RC church goer, I know how much they should be doing to welcome us back and keep us as part of the community. You and your dd are the future of the church.

Sorry, no real advice on the behaviour, but thanks for the laugh and don't take it to heart!

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:34

Trifle and moondog - she did take her daughter out!!

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alexsmum · 13/04/2006 17:36

gosh lots of issues.
maundy thursday service probably not appropriate for children.an easter sunday family service probably more suitable.
I take my kids to church sometimes but would never let them run around.I usually take a stack of books/crayons/paper etc and try and distract them by looking at the stained glass etc.
yes churches need to be welcoming to fmilies and chldren but it's a two way street i think and children need to know it's not a playground.
having a 'twinkle in your eye' when your daughter breaks the rules is just condoning her behaviour.
When you say no she needs to know that you mean it.Crouch down to her level and make eye contact and say 'no' very firmly.
If she is getting a reputation as a problem child then you do need to address this-not just for your sake but for hers too.The party invitations and playdates and friends will all dry up if she doesn't know to behave around others.
I'm saying this and sounding judgemental but both of your lives will be better if you can get it sorted.

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Moondog · 13/04/2006 17:40

Yes,I know dinosaure.

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Moondog · 13/04/2006 17:40

She was however still in the building and making a noise.

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:42

Well, I'm glad they're a bit more tolerant at the church we attend, is all I can say.

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Caththerese1973 · 13/04/2006 17:45

Dinosaure
she has never been in nursery until VERY recently, and this has only been three times for one morning a week. Am planning to upgrade to one full day a week once she is settled in, so I can get on with preparing for my job that starts in July.
It's been hard because lately she has been sick a couple of times and unable to go: she's really only been once a fortnight so far. DD says she likes the carer but 'the other children fight with me'. I suspect DD actually instigates fights, howver. It is a family daycare scheme she is in (do they have these in the UK?) That is where a fully checked-out mum runs a small scale daycare centre from her house, under auspices of registered organisation. No men allowed on premises during daycare hours except for husband, there's a strict program of activities and meals etc that carer has to follow, and carer is subject to spot checks by organising body. It is a great option for mums who can't afford commercial daycare. I only have to pay Pat (dd's carer) $11.00 a day with govt subsidy.
Pat reports that Hannah (my dd) is basically fine but because she has never had much to do with other kids up until now, veers between being very shy (prefers to play alone) and somewhat bossy (won't share etc). I was pleased the last time Pat had her because she at least ate her lunch! (dd is kind of phobic about eating at other people's places). I'm not really anxious about her 'socialisation', as she gets on like a house on fire with kids she knows reasonably well, such as my best friend's daughter who is around the same age. The problem is that mostly it is just dd and me, and I feel our relationship is more 'buddy-buddy' than Mum and daughter.
My best friend minded her on my graduation night, and I couldn't believe it! I was fully expecting that she would still be rampaging around at 11.30, which was whe I got back to BF';s place, but BF reported that ddd had climbed into bed at 7.30 with no fuss at all, AND (this was so hard for me to believe) asked to be taken to toilet and had had no accidents. I guess maybe the presence of a peer had an effect. My feeling right now is that more time she spend with kids of her own age, the better, but I don't want to push her too much daycare-wise, as she does have the stress of my separation from her dad to cope with.

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:46

ct, I was asking whether dd goes to nursery, because I think you'll find that when she does start, she'll learn about sharing toys, not tantrumming all the time etc etc etc.

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:47

Sorry, x-posted.

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 17:50

The experience of staying with your friend sounds really positive, ct.

My DS1 was a nightmare toddler, and also a very late toilet-trainer, but he improved A LOT once he got into a good nursery where the staff were able to give him one-to-one and help him integrate with the other children. He'd had a bad nursery experience before that, however.

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alexsmum · 13/04/2006 17:50

cath, maybe it was because your friend was very firm and let her know exactly where her boundaries are? no'twinkle eyed ' mum letting her get away with it?

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Caththerese1973 · 13/04/2006 17:58

Just wanted to make point that in my opinion there is no analogy between chruch and cinema. At the cinema, yes, you pay your money, you are going there to enjoy a commodity. Church altogether different. Not a theatrical spectacle. Sure, people want to contemplate and pray. My point was that when I was a little RC girl, people didn't seem so concerned by unruly toddlers: they came to mass to give something of themselves in spirit, not to get something (ie aesthetic, perfect, beautiful spectacle).
Plus myself and dd were reprimanded when we were actually sitting outside this massive, stone cathedral. I positioned myself in such a way that I could hear liturgy etc, and hopefully not disturb other parishioners too much. To be honest, I think that people who can't even put up with faint toddler noise coming from outside the church from a distance are pretty intolerant. And we are, after all, talking about the RCs, who are famously anti-contraception etc. Evidently there's a lot more contraception going on these days then there used to be! When I was a kid there would be Mums contending with literally ten kids in church. I'm not endorsing the anti contraception policy of RC-goers. Merely saying that if that is their attitude, they should welcome children and be prepared to accept that with normal kids comes a certain amount of NOISE and disruption.

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alexsmum · 13/04/2006 18:05

yes, toddlers talking in loud voices,babies crying and pointed questions about the lady in front with the silly hat-but i don't think running up and down shouting and doing ballet in the aisle during one of the most solemn masses of the year is quite the same.

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alexsmum · 13/04/2006 18:05

i would think it would be MORE acceptable in a cinema than a church to be honest

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dinosaure · 13/04/2006 18:07

Come on, ct has come on here for a bit of support and for constructive suggestions about her toddler. ct took her little girl OUT when her behaviour started to become disruptive.

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alexsmum · 13/04/2006 18:11

i know that, but i wos just pointing out what probably WOULD have been acceptable.i think it was out of hand by the time she'd got to the dancing in the aisle bit.

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tortoiseshell · 13/04/2006 18:12

I think generally people are quite indulgent of children, especially if mum can be seen to be trying her best to keep them relatively quiet. I've certainly never felt any negativity. On the other hand, I don't think I would take them to a Maundy Thursday service, because it is a very quiet service (along with All Souls etc), and not just any mass. Or I would just take them in for the communion, and make sure that they couldn't be heard during the rest of the service. I do think it's a difficult balance to strike, as whilst I firmly think children should be welcomed at church, I don't think it's fair if they wreck the service for everyone else.

Things I've found that have kept children quiet in church are etch a sketch, little 'lift the flap' books (if you've got a few then you can rotate them, and keep the interest) and I always used to take a little picnic of non-crumby food (eg raisins, grapes, cheese).

I'm sure it's just a phase, and she'll probably grow out of it really quickly - good luck with the toilet training!

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jamsam · 13/04/2006 18:23

exscuse the un holy language...bloody hell, who do they think they are???

well, i was thrown out of weight watchers because my then 2yr old ds1 was 'noisey' and when i moved here i went to church every sunday without fail but iwas never spoken to, made welcome or invited into anything. they even suggested that if my son insisted on needing the toilet after 10 minutes i should just go home, not hard admittedly as im 3 doors from the church but still..christian charity and compassion seems to have turned into sheer bloody mindedness.
i think i would have a word with the bishop..ALL churches whatever denomination should be child friendly in some way.
(failing that a nasty letter signed 'DOCTOR....' should happen!!!!)

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annh · 13/04/2006 21:31

To the people who said that you did take your dd out and people should be more tolerant, yes, you did take her out but only after it sounds like she had run riot for about 20 mins.

I'm Catholic and have two lively boys and I have to say I would have been fed up if I'd been present at that Mass and listening to your dd. It was probably not a great service to start with (although could have been worse, you could have chosen Good Friday!)so it was probably a bit ambitious to expect any 3yo to sit through it. If you don't go to church a lot, maybe you haven't learned the battle techniques of us church-hardened mums which is to bring crayons, paper, raisins, a drink etc.

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peaches27 · 13/04/2006 22:36

We took our kids to mass, son when he was about 6 but daughter started at 18months. We went as a couple though, and would take it in turns to go out and come back in. We discussed it with our priest who was nice about it and encouraged us to bring our daughter, he said he didnt mind them chatting or moving about, it was just if they started squealing or screaming he would lose his thread with the mass. But this was a local parish church which was connected to a Catholic school, the parish priest being chair of Governors, so he was used to kids. Look round for this type of church and ask the priest which mass is most suited to children. They sometimes do a family mass where children from the parish take part in the procession, or do a special song and play instruments. This sort of thing may amuse her. Our priest was also good cos he was quick - essential if you have kids!!!

We used to take books in and a biscuit for when we had communion. We always let the kids put money in the box and help light a candle, and talked about the statues and stained glass windows.

I know what you mean though, as a lapsed Catholic, you get a bit of a draw to going to church at Easter.

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