Please help me see behaviour of 4 year old in a positive way

[Squarer]

My DS is 15 months old, and my only real contact with older toddlers/children is through playgroup. I see the good and bad side of the children I have met here and nothing they do actually makes me bristle.
My niece, however, does. My brother has been over from the other side of the pond and is having his daughter for the duration. This means we have seen said neice 3 times in the last week, and I have to say I find her behaviour horrible.
Examples:

1. Snatches all my DS's toys off him and piles them up in a corner, holding him off them shouting at him that they are all hers. He sits quietly looking at a book, and that will be taken away. Ignores bein told that that is not a nice thing to do and carries on, refusing to give anything back or allow him to play with any of his own toys.
   
2. Pushes him over (example: went to a petting farm and he was looking at one of the lizards and next minute he is on the floor crying and she is standing exactly where he was after shoving him)
   
3. We go and visit the place where they are staying and anything he touches she's shouting its hers and takes it all away from him; keeps taking his comfort blanket off him saying its hers, and then the final nail in the coffin, he had crawled into the room where she was sleeping and I found her dragging him out by his leg.
   

She has appears to have speech delay - at nearly 4 some words are understandable but most is just gibberish. She also appears to be totally away with the faries, but I am not convinced this does not just come out when she is being told to do something she doesn't like.

Putting it like this makes it sound as though these things happen intermittently, but it is almost constant, the pushing, the shouting, the taking things. I think I would be horrified if my son turned out like this. Is this behaviour just normal and I need to get with the flow, or is there something else?

Please help! I will see her again before my brother flies back and I just want to shut her in a cupboard!

[elliott]

Not normal or usual for my 4 year old to behave like this. He might to any of the things you mention on occasion but not as a norm. Also i would enforce this - how does your brother encourage good behaviour/react to bad behaviour?
BUT small children's behaviour usually reflects the environment they are in - both in terms of security and stability and the behaviour that is expected of them.
Do I gather from your post that your brother is not with the mother of your neice and doesn't usually look after her? In which case she may be very unsettled and unable to cope with being in a strange place. The behaviour also sounds like typical sibling jealousy and it may be if you are the only adult female around, she is jealous and doesn't know how to react to your ds.
So I suppose the answer is that no, don't expect this to be the norm for a 4 year old, but also, try to find out what is the reason for it rather than thinking it is just the 4 year old to blame...

[Caligula]

What d'you mean he is "having his daughter for the duration"? Does she normally not live with him?

This certainly sounds like a combination of attention-seeking behaviour and jealousy. Does she normally get positive attention from your DB? Does she behave like this with him there?

[Marina]

Definitely not behaviour I have seen in NT four year olds. Ds was 4 when dd was born and although he occasionally growls at her and she does annoy him, he would have known at that age not to treat a toddler that way.
I think Elliott has identified a huge factor in this though - she is not with her mum, but with a dad she sees presumably not very often. If she has a language delay there could be other SN issues that mean she is struggling with being round your ds/with her dad/away from her mum, and that her nasty-seeming behaviour may not be intended that way, but a sign of distress/anguish. Would you or your brother know if she has a diagnosis of SN?
It must be very hard for you to be seeing all this, and miserable for your poor little ds, but she sounds from what you say like she is also upset by the situation.
Has your brother even mentioned that he is concerned about her? Has he discussed her behaviour with his ex? Was the break-up particularly distressing for the little girl? :(

[Squarer]

Sorry for the delay in responding - pressed to post and then had doorbell, DS waking from nap, lunchtime sandwich making combo....

And thank you for all of your replies

My brother and his wife split up around a year ago and she looks after their DD. However, she has shown her tendencies to be like this with my DS before (although we rarely saw her even before the split).
In terms of my brother and his enforcing behaviour regime, I have to admit that I think that it is poor. Particularly after the dragging along by the leg incident - his reaction was to suggest giving her a slap (I assume he meant smack as opposed to a full Gone With The Wind Effort). I suggested that that was not the way to go about things and we managed to get her to say "soweee" and give him a hug.

My brother brought his new girlfriend with him, who I have to say is admirable with children. She commands the respect of my brothers DD and uses words instead of actions to enforce behaviours (it seems to come naturally to her - she encourages with "hey" good job!" when DN has done something good, and speaks in a calm manner when something has been done wrong). On the other hand I think my brother confuses the hell out of her. She does not seem to differentiate anyone for different behaviour. She is pretty consistently awful - I know if my DS were not there she would not be awful, so I see what you mean about sibling rivallry - what I don't understand about that is she is given every opportunity not to feel that way.

I have wondered about SN issues with her. I know my brother was looking up how to get her seen by an SLT whilst he was over (I suggested the waiting list may be a little longer than 2 weeks!) but I spoke to my brothers girlfriend about potential other issues. I wondered about a possible low-level autism due to the away with the faeriness - but I know nothing about it really, it was more thinking out loud.

I do realise she is possibly stressed and possibly unable to communicate this stress due to speech delay/being nearly 4, but she seems so happy when she is being read to, taught how to feed the llamas and when I laid on her bed next to her when she stayed here and looked at the diferetn animals we could see in the shapes from my Mathmos projection light I put on to help her sleep she was really happy - I have just typed that and I am thinking "attention". I know my brother has been looking up SLTs as his wife has not done anything (granted that is his side of the story).
When we went round to their place last night, DN had what appeared to be a huge flare up of Excema on the back of her knees - Brothers girlfriend said that she would like to know why it had come up as it was not there when they took her back to his wifes for the weekend. Perhaps the answer is right there in that sentence. Daddy goes. Daddy comes. Daddy goes. Daddy comes. (Think I should stick up for him here btw - he never wanted to go in the first place)

I hope I have managed to answer everyones questions in that essay. Am I rambling? I'm feeling slightly more positive about our next meet already though.

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

She sounds like she might well have SN to me. A nearly 4 year old speech should be clearish. Does she just have a speech problem, or does she appear to have a problem with language as well- ie does she have a decent sized vocabularly, is she using sentences (even if promounciation is poor).

The `US is usually pretty good at picking up developmental problems (far better than the uk) though.

[Squarer]

Jimjams (good to see you back) - she doesn't speak in sentences as such - it is really more like a couple of words that she will repeat such as "baby have food, baby have food" (referring to my DS having his tea). They are the kind of things that you can make out, and her jibberish seems to take that form too.
Her speech had improved enormously since Christmas though...

[Squarer]

Oh, forgot to say, DN is in the UK - DB is in the USA

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

She says "baby have food at 4"? Good grief why has no-one picked up on her . Does she go to nursery? If so, what on earth are they doing! I think an urgent assessment is needed really so everyone knows what they are dealing with. How's her understanding? Even if her condition is mild her limited ability to express herself is going to make it more likely that she shows the sorts of behaviours you describe. How often does your brother see her, could he get her referred to SALT (or pay for an urgent private assessment- about 80-120 quid for an assessment + report. You can find a private SALT through ASLTIP (comes up in google). I guess the first thing though is for him to talk to his ex and find out if she is having any assessments/input.

[Sparklemagic]

squarer, I think the poor child has too much to cope with. Mum and Dad splitting (acrimoniously?), spending time seperately with Dad away from mum, dad introducing new girlfriend to the equation, and (with all due respect) a dad who can give no guidance or boudaries for any testing behviour. She sounds stressed and unsettled and badly in need of some security in the form of a settled family life for some considerable time, and parents communicating well about her, and her dad implementing similar boudaries as she gets with mum.

Her speech may well be worth a referral to speech therapy but isn't necessarily a sign of an underlying condition - it could be of course, but I do know some four year olds with very unclear speech indeed, and they are perfectly bright children without any autistic spectrum condition.

I think all the behaviour you describe could easily be related to her life situation, and how she is parented. But definitely if I were her mum or dad I'd be getting her checked by GP ? HV? poss speech therapist, for starters.

[Caligula]

I agree with Sparklemagic, lots of little kids revert to babyish behaviour when traumatised by parent's break up. It's not necessarily a sign of SN, but could be a desperate plea for attention/ help.

Sounds like this poor little girl is terribly distressed and it's coming out in her awful behaviour.

[Twiglett]

I haven't read the thread but a couple of things shine out

the child is separated from a parent that she lives with .. that will create challenging behaviour in its own

a 4 year old with limited communication skills would need assessing in my view .. that can be extremely confusing if she cannot communicate her needs and wants it will come out also as weird behaviour .. what's behind this then? does she have developmental problems?

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

unclear speech is one thing- ds2 did a good line in gobbledegook for ages, but limited sentence construction is another. By 4 a child should be speaking in sentences. If they're not they need assessing. There are plenty of conditions other than ASD that limit the length of utterence, but only a proper assessment will rule out problems.

[Twiglett]

have now read thread and see I am not alone in thought processes

'ello jimjams .. did I miss a vax barney then

[morningpaper]

I actually think this doesn't seem very abnormal to me.

Maybe my friend's children are all delayed and badly-behaved though (I think so a lot of time) :)

[Twiglett]

as a suggestion I would try and involve her as the 'big girl' in looking after 'her baby cousin' .. rather than it becoming a constant no situation maybe giving her responsibility would help? .. just a suggestion

[Twiglett]

I watched an almost 4 year old, look at my almost 2 year old as she climbed up the climbing frame towards him .. switch his gaze till he only had her in his peripheral vision and then gently place his foot on her hand and push as hard as he could till she said ow

almost 4 year olds can do weird things

[Gillian76]

I also agree that at 4 the child has had a lot to deal with. Parents split up, dad has a new girlfriend, only child who is probably not used to sharing things. You are also seeing her with her father with whom she doesn't normally live and he seems pretty ineffective in his management of her behaviour.

Perhaps there are developmental delays, I don't know.

Have you tried playing with them, rather than leaving them to play together? Does it make any difference to her behaviour?

[bluebear]

She sounds quite a lot like my ds who has speech problems due to hearing impairment, and has quite extreme behaviour at times which (I am hoping) is due mainly to frustration due to his hearing problems and his wanting to control a world that is so confusing from his point of view.
He can show affection towards dd (he is 4.5 she is 2.5) but most of the time he doesn't. (and he gets lots of attention, honest).
Would recommend your db has her hearing tested (this is the first step that occurs before speech and language assessment anyway)....if not hearing, then could be SN, but I defer to Jimjamskovt on that subject!

[Squarer]

I know my brother was looking at getting his DD SALTed. He suggested his wife had not done anything along those lines. Whilst the split was as amicable as possible, it seems to be heading towards the acrimonious now. She does go to nursery but I don't know what they have had to say about it. I do know she is not on a waiting list to see anyone. Her understanding of getting "the blue box" and where the blue box is is limited (it was a tissue box for her runny nose). I kept having to call her back so she could see where I was pointing, having just run off in any direction but that of the tissues. I will pass on your google keyword to my brother - thanks for that. Funnily enough, me and DB's GF were discussing her re hearing ability so it is good to know that is all part and parcel of the tests.
I have tried involving them both together in books and play, but she still reverts to the same behaviour after a while - pushing him out of the way so he can't see the book, stealing his comfort blanket etc. She even runs over and takes things from him whilst she is being given one to one attention.
In terms of her speech/development, it certainly hasn't deteriorated since the split - in fact it has improved drastically within the last 4 months, but I think that is just to do with her getting older. She has always been really quiet and never goo goo'd or gaa gaa'd as a baby, and my 15 month old makes her look positively mute (he gibbers for England). I certainly agree that her current situation must have her in rags, in addition to whatever else it is she is dealing with - particularly as she can't express it. Not sure she gets too much from her mum either, sadly. She has just moved in her new boyfriend and handed over a book to my brother with "instructions" including bedtime routine of "whenever you think necessary". And then I watch my brother happily handing out 3 Fruit Shoots to his DD within the space of an hour - I had an internal moment which I know as a "Mumsnet Wry Smile"
BTW, I am laughing at Twigletts "almost 4 year olds can do really weird things" and wondering which village MP lives in
You've all made really thoughtful and helpful assessments of a complicated situation, and I thank you, as one who occaisionally still flounders with her own 15 month old!

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

gosh yes always get hearing tested first. There can be waits for that as well though :(

Is she not able to follow a point very well? If so, then added in with other factors I would say she definitely needs assessment- preferably an in depth one :(

Not a barney as such really Twiglett. TBH I think I should leave mnet because I always end up feeling like I live on a different planet from everyone else. Aloha said I shouldn't go but should stay off vax threads (which I haven't managed). I only came back on to suggest a place to buy swimsuits for sensitive spectrummy kids, and here I am. Dh is going to have a fit.

[Squarer]

Not so much not following the point Jimjams - more not even looking at me/it and just running hither and thither.

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

I'd say she needs an assessment although I wouldn;t like to hazard a guess as to what might be up. Definitely worth getting hearing checked though, untreated hearing loss (by untreated I mean not introducing alternative ways of communicating as well as grommets etc) does tend to produce very similar behaviours to communication disorders early on.

[Squarer]

Spoke to my brother earlier - he's going to Google your acronym and is very grateful to everyone for the input . I'll make sure he knows to ensure her hearing is done too.