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Behaviour/development

Sorry, long and not very cheerful, but...

35 replies

WorriedAboutABoy · 07/04/2006 14:08

...I have had a terrible morning! I went to DS1's Easter party at his nursery (pre-school, he's 3yo). DS1 behaved atrociously throughout, and none of the nursery staff seemed at all surprised. He was rude, uncooperative, anti-social, didn't want to join in, bellowed things like "I don't like that stupid song" after all the children, parents and teachers had done songs/actions, and he had just shouted and refused to join in all the way through it, during the walk around the garden he deliberately went the wrong way and barged the other children...etc. I had to virtually drag him in and out of the building/garden, he got into the doorway and stopped dead, so that no-one could get past, he did the same thing at the gate, he whinged and screamed incessantly, he wouldn't put his shoes on, he wouldn't take his coat off, he wouldn't go to the toilet, he wouldn't say please or thank you at the table and he screamed and roared while the other children were eating nicely.

His talking is more like a 6/7yo than than a 3yo, it's very noticeable (people are always stopping me in shops etc because they've heard him) and yet there is no work on the walls by him (I've been checking for a few weeks, and all the other children's seems to go up), none of the paintings are his (although he used to bring some home when he first started - he hasn't done so for ages), he's not in any of the photos up on the walls, he hadn't made a hat for Easter... please don't think I am bragging about his talking, I really am not, but I don't know what to do with him. He's found the group/carpet times difficult right from the start, he runs off to be on his own or shouts the teacher down, he finds joining in difficult and prefers being on his own or one to one with an adult.

I've just tried again to sit with him and have a quiet, gentle talk with him about his behaviour, but I can't even get him to make eye contact. Even when he isn't being naughty he doesn't really do eye contact, he just pulls faces, looks at my mouth, looks past me; if I try and get him to look at my eyes when I'm talking to him he pushes his face right up to mine so that he can't focus on my eyes. Am I being paranoid?

I can't understand why he behaved like this today. He loves nursery, he likes singing and parties and all that kind of thing usually. He does know how to behave, I'm not a tyrant, don't smack/bawl at him, but I am quite strict about manners and behaviour, being kind to others etc, and so is dh. He had plenty of sleep last night and he knew what was happening today. None of the other children behaved like that. It was just so embarrassing and horrible, the staff were just rolling their eyes as if to say "Oh, it's him again" and the other parents just kept staring at me as though I had two heads. And at the end, when all the other children went off happily with their parents clutching their hats and things that they'd made, DS1 just screamed and struggled "I don't want to go home, I won't, I'm not going to, I don't like it at home, I don't want to go with you" all the way down the street. I had really been looking forward to his first Easter party, seeing him enjoy it with all the other children. I have tried gently asking him how he was feeling and what went wrong, but he just blows raspberries in my face and says "I don't like joining in" and either runs away or changes the subject or does something aggressive.

Am I being paranoid, or am I somehow doing a crap job?

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flashingnose · 07/04/2006 14:14

Gosh, sounds pretty upsetting for you. How old is DS2? Have you spoken to the nursery about why there's nothing of his up on the walls? You say the staff were rolling their eyes - have they said anything to you before or was this all a big shock?

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Rhubarb · 07/04/2006 14:15

I would be more worried about the nursery tbh. I think it's terrible that he has no pictures on the walls or no photos, that's really gonna make him feel good about himself isn't it? I think they have singled him out and they are perpetuating his behaviour by expecting it.

I would have a word with the nursery staff. Can you not go in one morning to help and keep an eye on things?

It really does sound like it is the nursery's fault rather than yours. If my dd's old nursery had no photos or her on the wall, or didn't put her pictures up, then I'd have taken her out. That's just downright cruel!

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MagicGenie · 07/04/2006 14:24

Hello WAAB. You are not doing a crap job (big hug). And there's nothing at all wrong with trying to teach him manners etc, presuming you're not trying to beat him into it with a big stick! :)

Two thoughts;

  1. Is it possible he's being bullied, picked on or has real, rooted dislike of one of his carers?


  1. (please read this one in the positive way it's intended) He sounds highly intelligent and incredibly articulate. Loads of 3yo probably feel like this about things but don't have the 'gumption'/wherewithall/language with which to express it. Is he stimulated enough at nursery? For example, could he move up and join the older children for some of their activities?

The reason you don't see his work on the wall might be he's bored and held back by what he's being asked to do.

Another thing - it's worth reading up on this but I'm sure that boys have a massive surge of testosterone at this age.
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wessexgirl · 07/04/2006 14:48

I agree with Rhubarb; it's a very bad sign that his existence has been erased from all the displays. How is he going to cope at school if this is his experience of nursery??

Definitely ring them up and ask for a meeting. If they can't satisfy you that they are doing the best for him, look elsewhere. Best of luck Smile.

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tallmummy · 07/04/2006 15:12

You are not doing a crap job.
You say his speech is really good. Maybe - along similar lines to MagigGenie here - just maybe your little boy is quite gifted and getting frustrated. The nursery staff need to look into differentiating the activities a little to include him.

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flashingnose · 07/04/2006 16:03

Talk to us WAAB Smile

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CarolinaMooncup · 07/04/2006 16:10

no advice, I just wanted to say how horribly upsetting that must have been for you Sad.

Hope the nursery can give you some reassurance about this - if not, it sounds like it's really not the right place for him.

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puddle · 07/04/2006 16:13

It sounds from your post as though the nursery expect him to behave like that, but also that it was a shock to you and that he is well behaved at home - is that right?

I would be wondering, if that's typical of his behaviour at nursery, why I didn't know about it. If my son behaved like that I would want to be told and to be discussing what he's like at home/ sharing strategies for improving his behaviour. Have they not put his work up or has he not produced anything (could be the case if he won't settle to an activity).

What do you do when he blows raspberries/\runs away/is aggressive when you tackle him about it?

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coppertop · 07/04/2006 16:14

How long has he been at the pre-school? The staff should be letting you know if there are any problems. Can you arrange to speak to them officially about your concerns?

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WorriedAboutABoy · 07/04/2006 16:14

Thanks, everyone who has responded. It is worrying that there is no evidence of him on the walls - I have been worried about it, because he is more than capable of doing everything they do. If he isn't doing work, when the other children are, then what IS he doing?

DH went to the open morning and chatted to his teachers a few weeks ago (I was bedridden with flu) and they said he was by far their brightest child, he talks like an adult and wasn't having any real problems although he can be a bit difficult. I was happy with that - I'm not over-excited about them saying he is bright, all children have different strengths; but I was glad to hear they weren't having major problems with him, because he was very difficult in the first few weeks. But now I think they just didn't tell DH the whole story, they are not handling him properly or doing anything productive with him and they think it's my fault. It breaks my heart to think that anyone might actually not like him Sad. When he is properly managed he is a dear, loving little boy. I could tell from the way they looked at me today that they think his behaviour is my fault, but I don't know whether they think he is spoilt and undisciplined, or whether they think he is disturbed because of ill-treatment/harsh parenting, or what - none of the above is the case, he is a boisterous, challenging kid who gets lots of attention at home, is well stimulated but also well disciplined. I had noticed before that no-one apart from me and DH seem to be able to handle him, he runs rings around other relatives/friends who try to get him to co-operate. Because I have a system for handling him I don't really think about how difficult he is, IYSWIM.

I don't really want to move him, he says he loves it there and I have been impressed with the place/facilities/staff until now.

I'm confused, can you tell? [weak smile :)]

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PinkTulips · 07/04/2006 16:16

WAAB, as long as you know he can behave well then i'd be inclined to agree with the others and ask questions at the nursery. if his behaviour is often like this there then why haven't they talked to you about it? why aren't they putting his art up? it sounds like there could be a serious problem there and he just doesn't have any way of dealing with it besides acting out.

i'm so sorry you've had a crap day, hope things get better soon.

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secur · 07/04/2006 16:25

Sory I havn't read all posts so hope I am not repeating!

If the nursery have effectivly ostraciced him then something is badly worng, you cann't "punsih" a small boy by shutting him out - I am not surprised he does not want to join in - what is the point if everybody else gets teh special treatment and recognition. Not making an easter hat Shock why on earth not, no matter how he behaved at this age he did not deserve to turn up to a party and be the onlyone who was singled out like that.

IMHO your problem is not your son bt your childcare and they either need to be changed or spoken to very strongly about your expectations from them.

When my daughter was at nursery there were two very "challenging" children who still are "challenging" many years later - but they worked very very hard to get things right, so much so that even my daughter used to come home talking about "I did painting, sandplay and XXX was really good today so he got a sticker on his special chart" - the other children were even proud when these boys achieved well.

I do hope you sort this out, I am sure your son is capable of anything with the right support so decide what you want and keep pushing until you get it - from them or someone else if it is neccesary.

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pencil · 07/04/2006 16:58

I would go in and see nursery and say how surprised you were at your sons behavior in school. You could then discuss how you handle him and question them further- was it a one of if not why hadn't mentioned it before?
If it wasn't how can you together make you boy happy with school, this would include display stuff etc.
I do hope you get this sorted out!
Chin up, your son needs you Smile

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yellowmum · 07/04/2006 17:47

I had a similar experience with my little girl at preschool, in that she started to misbehave and push other children, throw toys and so on. I just did not have any problems with her behaviour at home, she was very well behaved with other children at mums and toddlers and with friends, and I had even been complimented on how well she behaved, so this was a big shock, and very upsetting.

However, I think that probably she is quite a difficult child to handle, and I just didn't realise it - she is very bright and does get a fair bit of attention from me, but also I have had a very difficult son before her and compared to him, she's easy.

I realised that I am really practised in ignoring the bad and praising the good, distraction techniques, and so on, simply because my son was so difficult and I had to really think hard about how best to cope with him - I applied these techniques to my daughter almost without thinking about it. When I went into the preschool I could sort of see why she was reacting badly to them - their way of disciplining was perfectly ok for most children, but they didn't really handle her the same way as I do, in various ways. I also felt that she was a bit bored. She felt frustrated, and acted out by pushing other children and chucking things.

Like you, I felt rather judged, which was awful because she only misbehaved when she was with them! I also felt they just didn't like her very much, which was also awful: she has so many fantastic qualities but they weren't positive about her at all.

I ended up moving her to the same nursery my son went to, because I felt their approach suited him so well and so would also suit her. It seems to be going ok so far, touch wood. I just feel that you have to be on your child's side. Sometimes the fault is not with them, but the setting they're in just doesn't suit them. I was really reluctant to move her because of the disruption but you know your child best and if you can't sort it out with the nursery it might be worth considering. You have all my sympathy - I was really upset when this happened to me.

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footiemad · 07/04/2006 18:34

W.A.A.B. Firstly you are not a bad mum {big hug] This sounds so much like i've been going through with my DS (now 7).
Similar situation at nursery.Found out through a friend what was going on at school!
He is v.bright and bored at school and needs things to do all the time,but the teachers just don't have the time,he is well behaved at home but silly at school (their words). Another mum in same class has exactly the same prob with her Ds,the're both top in class.
I've been in countless times and asked if my Ds can have extra work(his request).He can't wait to go into yr3 as he thinks it will be harder!!Go into see them and don't let them make you feel it's your fault,good luck.Smile

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Sparklemagic · 07/04/2006 18:40

I agree with most people who are saying talk to the Nursery! It's the perfect time - just ring up, tell them you were very surprised indeed at his behaviour as it is completely different from his normal self at home. It's time to get them to lay it on the line for you about whether he is like this usually; and what their strategies have been and will be to improve things for him.

I do feel for you but I think it's got to be probably a combination of just being three and the setting he is in. My DS has a term at a private nursery from which I moved him, and he has thrived big time in a new setting - so take heart, it can be done and sometimes is the best thing all round, to move them if the setting is the problem.

I was very interested to hear what magicgenie said about boys getting a surge of testosterone at this age - my DS has always been a whirlwind of energy, but in the last month or so (he's 3.5) he has become so violent, wanting to punch and hit and 'kill' things!!! So I definitely believe some of this behaviour you describe could be due to this phase they are in at this age!

However I strongly feel it shouldn't be beyond the nursery's capability to work with him in a way that makes him happy. Maybe he is having a phase of not wanting to join in so much - fine! My DS certainly is! but his pre-school have a way with him of exerting no pressure but talking to him lots about what they are doing and tell me he sometimes gets 'drawn in' despite himself. I don't worry about this, they are still very young and will get more into joining in later on when friendships start to matter a bit to them.

Funnily enough my DS is also very articulate and I find he gets on better with and gravitates towards older children who can talk to him on his own terms. This I think will also even out as other kids gain the speech skills.

Sorry it's long and rambling, just wanted to add my experience fwiw.

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MagicGenie · 07/04/2006 22:01

Did a bit of reading up on the testosterone surge and it does happen at 3/4. Totally agree with others that something's amiss on the nursery front, though.

Managed to have a chat about it with your DH?

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WorriedAboutABoy · 07/04/2006 22:28

Thanks, everyone, yes I have talked to DH about it, he came home from work early and we managed to sneak a quick chat about it while ds1 was watching Bagpuss and ds2 was asleep :). I then finally managed to get ds1 to talk about it properly before he went to bed. He was in his pyjamas and was feeling a bit more relaxed, so we had a cuddle and after about half an hour of gentle skirting round the issue, we hit the problem. It happened via me asking loads of questions and eventually, when I said something like "Everyone likes you, you're such a gorgeous lovely boy.... do you think everyone likes you, ds1?" to which he put his head down and muttered "I don't think so..." and then proceeded to tell me that one of the ladies at nursery had pulled him rather roughly outside when he wanted to play inside (he was being naughty, as they were supposed to be outside, but she was rough and it upset him), she had got cross with him, and he felt that she didn't like him any more. After reassuring him that grown-ups sometimes get cross - like Mummy does - but it doesn't mean they don't like him, and another 20 minutes of coaxing, he told me about an incident last week where he got lost in the nursery garden, couldn't find his way and ended up having to be rescued by another of the teachers, but because he was upset and scared, he argued with her. It all sounds petty, but to him it is earth-shattering, he has been really frightened and he really needed to talk about it. I think that when he feels cornered or threatened he acts out, and they are not understanding that what they interpret as naughtiness/overconfidence is really just an anxious little boy. He has been at home with me since birth, he only started there in January, and he is still only 3. But unfortunately because of his advanced speech he comes across as precocious.

I do think there is some truth in the testosterone surge idea. He has been quite temperamental lately and I think it's as unsettling for him as it is for us. He sometimes tells me he wants to hit me because he feels cross.

It's the Easter holidays now, so we have a bit of time to work on him before he goes back. DH and I have agreed to concentrate on his self-esteem, lots of praise, doing jobs for Mummy/Daddy etc, while toughening up considerably on bad manners, interrupting and shouting etc.

I have also promised ds1 that when he goes back I will walk him around the nursery garden and make sure he knows how to get back to the nursery so that he can't get lost again.

I am planning to arrange a meeting with the headmaster and his teacher as soon as the term starts, to talk about his adjustment and the fact that he seems upset about this woman's handling of him, and to talk about the fact that he doesn't seem to be producing any work worthy of being sent home/displayed on the walls.

Sorry, this is ridiculously long, but you all know how HUGE it is when your precious child is unhappy (it's the first time for me!!)and although I'll probably look back and laugh when he's older, I could cheerfully throttle the cow who was rough with him and made him feel as though he wasn't likeable.SadAngry

But on the whole I think we've got to the bottom of it and I am so relieved he felt able to talk to me about it, even if it did take some persuading.

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oops · 07/04/2006 22:38

you sound like a lovely mum, your son is lucky to ahve somebody so strong and sensible.

I do hoep you manage to sort out some of the issues at nursery. Just talking about it will probably have helped your little boy.
I feel quite sad for him, he sounds a bit misunderstood.

HAve a happy easter and good luck on your return to the nursery.

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busybusybee · 07/04/2006 22:46

Worriedaboutaboy

You little boy sounds a bit like mine in some ways
My ds doesnt listen a lot of the time, runs about and jumps a lot! He talks constantly (advanced for his age) and asks questions constantly. In all it is as if he doesnt get how to join in like other children. He seems to find "normal" quite difficult. Although he isnt aggressive or disruptive at all

I agree that the nursery issue is a problem that needs looking into but I am also wondering if maybe your ds would benefit from a visit to a specialist (and i mean that in the nicest way possible)

I recently took my ds to see a peadiatrician (referral by our health visitor) who reassured me that no I am not a rubbish mum (as I often feel the way you are now) but that actually ds is mildly autistic! Which actually made me feel better in many ways, although I was upset too

Could it be that actually you are a fantastic mum and that your ds may actually have a special need that he needs help with???

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Tiggiwinkle · 07/04/2006 22:54

Reading your posts WAAB, I wonder if you have considered Asperger Syndrome as a possible explanation? It is your mention of your DSs advanced speech which struck me, as children with AS can sound very "grown-up". It would also possibly account for his behaviour at the nursery concert. (My own DS has AS by the way, and I had a similar experience at a nursery Christmas "do"). Just a thought-dont want to worry you-but my DS was not finally diagnosed until he was 6, and I wish I had known sooner!

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busybusybee · 07/04/2006 23:04

Tiggiwinkle - Snap :o

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WorriedAboutABoy · 07/04/2006 23:44

Yes, it had occurred to me many times that he may have something on the autistic spectrum. My adoptive brother is autistic and it has niggled at me since ds1 was born... he was in intensive care when he was born and I have wondered whether that contributed to some sort of emotional dysfunction. It was always little things, like the fact that he never made eye contact while breastfeeding, or his body language, or the fact that he never asked for affection, even when hurt, I have had to teach him how to cuddle and sort of "train" him that cuddling and kisses are good. He is, in his way, very loving and giving (he brings me "breakfast" every morning from his wooden kitchen, and makes sure I dip my wooden mushroom into my wooden egg) but I've always felt there was something different about him. His talking really is exceptional, not just a bit but ridiculously different from other children of 3 - but he can't sing, he doesn't even try to undulate his voice, just talks - and yet he can recite every song/hymn/rhyme/story he has ever known. Since having ds2 I have been even more concerned really - ds2 is so affectionate and loving, so naturally keen on cuddles and eye contact.

I remember the first time ds1 reached out and touched me deliberately. We were on a train and dh and I had been bickering. ds1 was about 2, he reached out and touched my arm, I was so amazed. Obviously he had touched me before, I breastfed and I cuddled him all the time etc, but this was him touching me, deliberately. Ds2 is constantly pawing me and meddling with my fingers etc. It's just not the same.

I haven't allowed myself to look at this stuff before, I am quite confused and upset now, sorry if I am rambling.

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alardi · 08/04/2006 08:55

i wondered about Asperger's too (though I have no personal experience of that condition). He does sound like he's very actively testing boundaries, too.

I wanted to say, too, though, he could still be in the 'normal' spectrum going by my children. For instance, DD is 4yo and wouldn't notice if any of her art work was or wasn't on the nursery wall -- she just isn't that aware, and sometimes she just doens't feel like doing it. Even when she's well-fed and rested she can still have a stupid paddy for the weirdest reasons, that's part of the age, I think.

DS1 never did any artwork for playgroup before he was 4; he was more interested in interactive games with other children. When he was 2 the nursery said they thought he had a problem with maths because he didn't join in with singing maths songs; now he's 6 and sings and does maths like a whiz.

I wondered if you misinterpretted the staff rolling eyes as criticism when really it was meant as sympathy? Were they trying to say "Isn't it awful when your child behaves like that?" Even the nicest, brightest and best-behaved children have bad days.

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Tiggiwinkle · 08/04/2006 10:46

WAAB-Perhaps if you do a little reading-there is lots of info on the internet (the National Autistic Society has a good site) and Tony Attwoods book on Asperger Syndrome is excellent as a starting point. You may find, as I did, that a lot of the things your DS does fit the criteria. You could then ask for a referral for an assessment. It really is better to get help sooner rather than later-my DS had an awful time when he moved up from reception to year 1, and because he had no diagnosis, no help was available.

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