scouts or woodcraft folk?

[fattybum]

Hope it's okay to post this here!

So, which is better, or should ds do both? A few people have told me that scouts is a bit religious, not sure if this is true.

Experiences welcomed!

Thanks

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I'm a cub leader and, if you don't count the occasional (optional) church parade, and one mention of god in the promise, you'd struggle to spot any religious references in a typical evening. I'm an atheist and rarely feel compromised, put it that way. We're mostly up to our armpits in boisterous games, outdoor activities, crafts, visits (fire station, museum), skills (First Aid, cycling) and finding out about other cultures ... we did a cracking evening recently all about Chinese New Year and and Irish themed evening for St Patrick's Day. Don't know anything about woodcraft folk, sorry.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Traditionally:

Scouts, uniformed, promise to god, queen and country etc

Woodcraft folk: run by mad hippies with alternaaaptive ideas. No uniforms, religion, or queen.

[lollypopsicle]

Agree with Cogito re Scouts. However, if the leader is especially religious themselves, you may find more of an emphasis on religion than at your average group.

[Blu]

Officially Scouts afre VERY religious and thier policy is to encourage members to pray and worship. Officallu Leaders must not be atheists! see here - no paedophiles, no atheists but in practice most packs seem religion-lite. DS's lot put on a lot of pressure to attend Church Parade, but that's the pay off for free use of the Church Hall, I presume.

If you are lucky enough to have the option of both, talk to parents about what the individual groups are like. They are rin by local individuals so I think it would be hard to generalise.

Ideally I would like to have had the choice so that we could have avoided the expense of a uniform [mean]

[bruffin]

Woodcraft folk: run by mad hippies with alternaaaptive ideas. No uniforms, religion, or queen

they do have a political socialist agenda, but have noticed they have tried to reinvent themselves recently as an education group.

[Blu]

Political, yes, socialist? Maybe. Is promoting democratic co-operative principles the sole territory of socialism??

[bruffin]

It was started by the socialist party.

[bruffin]

Also the fact they are members of or affiliated with political movements makes me deeply uncomfortable.

[ragged]

You need to look at your actual local groups, see how they are run in practice. All the generalisations in the world mean nothing about your local group.
Saint John's Ambulance cadets is a nice inbetween group; drowning in H+S forms but expressly secular & apolitical, tend to be run by quirky types who might also go out Morris dancing.

I have DC in Scouts, Guides & SJA Badgers. Mad, I know.

[Blu]

Started by the Socialist party? I thought it was started by a breakaway individual from the Scouts?

Do you see Co-operatives Uk as a political movement? I suppose it is.
they make thier agenda v clear on their home page - it's a very clear philsophy, and doesn't seem sinister to me.

I had to go very deep into the Scouts website to find their actual policies, religious purpose etc - in fact i couldn't find where it was in the Scouts website, had to google for it.

DS is a Scout, I am not overly taxed about this (as they clearly don't implement thier discrimination against atheists as Leaders), just like things to be clear.

[madwomanintheattic]

well, there is a slight risk that you may end up with the one in a gazillion scout leader that is religious, but i'd say your chances are minimal, tbh.

you'd be hard pressed to find a woodcraft folk leader that wasn't, um, woo, though.

depends what you're after, really. nowt 'wrong' with either organisation, but if you want mainstream, go for scouts. if you don't do mainstream and find it all a bit threatening and scary, do woodcraft folk.

that said, if you really are talking about scout age children, and not beavers, it would be a really good idea to ask your child. becasue if your 12yo's mates are all going canoeing at the weekend and abseiling down buildings with the scouts, and you enrol him in the woodcraft folk, he might not be too happy. for 5 or 6 yo, it probably isn't too importnat.

have been a leader for both scouting and guiding, and everyone gets terribly tied up in knots about religion. i'm currently in canada, and the promise has been changed (and all of the songs etc) to be completely inclusive. i'm told the uk haven't yet, but i honestly don't think it will be long. the optional church parade is pretty much it.

so, mainstream, or woo? the choice is yours....

(i once accidentally found myself on a woodcraft folk email contact list. via a friedn who was a woodcraft folk leader. it was v interesting. she apologised to me (unsolicited) as there is definitely a cultural difference...)

[TwoIfBySea]

My dts are in Cubs, about to go to Scouts after summer, they started in Beavers. I suppose being a Christian country it is important to learn about religion but as a non-practising family verging on the atheist then the occasional reference to god and the district parade and church service once a year are a fair compromise for Cub camp and everything else they do.

I have no idea about woodcraft folk!

My dts are debating whether or not to keep with Scouts or join Air Cadets when they reach 13 so more Queen and country really!

Heck I don't even believe in the monarchy!

[Blu]

I could cope with any amount of Co-operative movement and socialism, but have a very low threshold for woo

The point about the choice of the child is paramount, I think. (probably a very Woodcraft Folk pov)

[madwomanintheattic]

actually, thinking about the idea that you may end up with the one in a gazillion scout leaders with a religious bent, maybe i just knew the ones that were extreme woo. tis possible? no idea how much official wooery content there is.... i might look it up, now.

[madwomanintheattic]

i'm not dissing woodcraft folk, btw. i love their quirkiness. i come from a very small c background though, and though have become v fond of occasional woo, can't quite go the whole hog.

[BornToFolk]

I went to Woodcraft when I was little and it was not woo at all! Just nice, normal, slightly lefty types. Of course, that was about 25 years ago so I accept things may have changed since then...

[Sunscorch]

I just can't imagine saying to my (potential) child, "Right! Shoes on, we're off to Woodcraft Folk."

=P

[An0therName]

I would investigate both and see which would suit you and your DS best, but I think it would be a bit much to do both - but as an atheist the only mention of religion in my DSs beavers has been in the promise. Also there tend to be less woodland folk groups around

[KinsfolkCambridge]

I suggest that you try out both and see which you prefer!
I dont know much about Scouts but I have been in woodcraft since I was 8, and it has given me some of the best experiences in my life. It is quite left wing and has ties with the labour and cooperative movements. We dont have a compulsory uniform, but do have our own tshirts and hoodies that people can wear if they want.
We have amazing national and international camps, we hosted an international camp last year, around 4500 people came along for 10 days from all over the world! it was great! I helped in the food distribution, it was a very large site!
You make genuine friends for life at woodcraft, everyone is lovely, there isnt a proper hierarchy of roles everyone is equal from the 6yr olds to the 60yr olds! I urge you to try us out, you might just love it! :):)

[alice1111]

I've been in Woodcraft since I was very little and I'm still a big part of it, as are my sisters and lots of my friends. Of course the name puts people off but interestingly there was a recent debate as to whether or not to change it. Most people agreed that the name simply meant that we had to know what the ethos etc. is, which is never a bad thing. Basically friendship, equality etc.

The part about socialism.. its true that we have links with socialism but in the day to day organisation this simply comes through, to me, as democracy; in the groups I've been involved in, even the youngest kids are a part of deciding the programme for the term, parents help to lead sessions and at camps every single person is put on a rota to do the work. We also debate everything; at a recent camp we spent some time debating whether or not children should have phones and electrical stuff on camp; even the youngest children gave their opinions, which counted as much as the adults. Think Summerhill and that could give you a good idea. The quirkiness is amazing, part of our individuality :)

From Woodcraft I gained friends from all over my area- which really helped when changing schools- and over the UK- and even the world (last year we hosted a huge international camp with delegations from all over the world) and a huge amount of confidence and experience, particularly in debating issues.. most Woodcraft teens I know are perfectly confident, capable and responsible enough to run a camp, debate anything, and are incredibly socially aware and responsible. I love it :)

Lastly, I know a university interviewer for a top uni who says that he can often spot a woodcraft candidate from these qualities... I don't know where I'd be without woodcraft!

[manxie64]

My three children have all been in woodcraft, my older 2 for over 12 years and it is a wonderful organisation which has given them and us as a family many marvellous experiences. If helping them think about the wider world and the issues this raises makes it a leftie organisation then so be it. Would recommend to anyone.

[YouBrokeMySmoulder]

Our cubs is a bit religious - there is a semi-compulsory church parade once a term and you wont get badges if you dont go.

Also dont discount the bloody sewing you'll find yourself doing - that alone would swing it for me gah.

[joanofarchitrave]

Glad some posts on here that are positive about Woodcraft. DS really enjoys it.

I believe that the nature of the experience in a particular group, Scouting or Woodcraft, is largely down to the leader and the amount of support they get (or demand) from their wider organisation and from parents. The local Beavers leader is a lovely chap but he doesn't have enough support from the deeply divided local leadership, doesn't ask parents for help and as a result the experience is dull - in two terms with Beavers, the colony never once went outside on an ordinary evening! That was not my experience in Guides years ago at all. Whereas the local Woodcraft leaders are equally lovely but make sure every parent signs up for a couple of evenings a term, plus the wider setup seems more organised. As a result, the activities ds does are just more interesting and involve far more time outside, which is what I wanted from this type of activity.

[startail]

Scouts!
DD2 loves it, they do tons of stuff, incredibly well organised.
Church once for Remembrance Sunday.

I'm an ex Brown owl and DD1s been a Guide and is now a Ranger. I'm in awe of the Scouts they really keep them busy.

Also Scouts and Guides is a huge organisation with opportunities all over the World and with student branches and universities etc.

[Loola21]

Hello, hope I can shed some light on your question. I grew up in Woodcraft Folk from a very young age, both parents being Leaders of some sort at different times. The group is divided into different ages: 6-9, 10-12, 13-16 and 16-21. (there is also sometimes younger if accompanied by leader parents!)

Essentially the groups usually meet once a week at a school/village hall, and have games and activities specific for their age group. Then in the holidays there is usually a camp held, a weekend one over Easter and a week long one over Summer, at very cheap cost- no profits made (it is a charity) the Leaders aren't paid but are volunteers. There is no emphasis on any relgion, but atheism isn't encouraged either. I think it is good for children to interact and make friends with those from different backgrounds with sometimes different views to their own. From what I know about cubs and scouts is that they are Christian, which might not encourage diversity if it segregates out those from other religions. Woodcraft is mixed sex (while scouts and cubs are split)- they teach that both sexes are equal and there are not specific male or female activites, children are free to choose what they like to do.

On the summer camps, there are activities such as craft, hiking, games, day trips to nearby towns/castles/beaches, sometimes activities such as rock climbing. In the evening there is often a campfire and singing. The camps are either divided into age groups (usually the weekend long ones) or for summer a whole town/district of all ages are together in one camp. Everyone is divided into groups of mixed ages for chore groups, where they take turns to cook or tidy etc. across the week. This gives children a sense of responsibility in mucking in to make the meals and washing up! There is a real sense of community in the Woodcraft Folk which I love.

As for its political links, I suppose Woodcraft could be generalised as being more socialist than any other movement. But the general view is that everyone should be accepted and treated kindly, which I think is generally a good view for children to have! The Woodcraft Folk's motto is "Span the world with Friendship". They have strong links with the Co-operative for its fair trade policies and ethics.

Sorry for the essay! Hope I might have helped you out, with at least one point of view. I know I might be biased, and I do not know much about the scouts, but I would recommend Woodcraft for any child. Finally, if you Google the Woodcraft Folk their is a website and more info- probably for Scouts too!