Hey wigwambam can i have a word?

[Donbean]

Hope you dont mind me calling you like that, im SO gobby me!
I was just reading your post on the self asteem thread and im interested in what you said about your mum. She sounds very similar to mine.
I have never ever in life met any one with a mother like mine, until now, reading what you say it sounds like they are the same person!
Would you mind me chatting to you about it?
I understand if you would rather not, if it would be too upsetting or what ever, its just i am so curious now.

[WigWamBam]

No problem with being called out at ... I don't mind gobby

No problem with chatting to you about it, cat me if you'd prefer to talk privately.

[Donbean]

I dont discuss with my mother stuff from when we were kids. I have discussed it with my dad though and made no bones about the fact that i remember EVERYTHING.
So you still have a relationship with your mother then?

[WigWamBam]

I'm too much of a coward to break it off - if it wasn't for the fact that I still want to see my dad and my little sister (well, I say little - she's 25) I would probably have broken contact long ago. But then I'd have been left feeling guilty about it ... she's good on the old guilt tripping.

She told me she loved me on my wedding day 10 years ago - I was 32, and it's the first time I can ever remember hearing her say it. I've certainly never felt it. She keeps telling me now what a nice person I am, and that she loves us all, and how much it hurts that my middle sister is so cold to her, but after so long it feels like empty words.

I keep thinking that I'm over it now ... and then something happens that brings it all back and I'm not. Nowhere near.

[SoupDragon]

WWB, I wasn't getting at you on stephone's thread

[WigWamBam]

Thanks, SD, I know. I just didn't want to bump the thread back up again for it all to start up again!

[SoupDragon]

I've started on the other one now instead.

[WigWamBam]

I noticed Why do they keep posting if they don't like the thread? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Donbean]

I did about 5 years ago and it honestly was like a weight lifted.
We started speaking again when i was expecting ds, by accident not by my choosing.
She is always fine with me, no conflict there any more. I think that it is because she knows i have no qualms about breaking away from her. She isnt bothered about ds though and TBH im not bothered. Its as i expected.
When we were kids, she was a very aggressive person. We were scared of her.
I remember the odd gentle time.
We, my brother and 2 sisters all agree that she should never ever have had kids.
What was yours like when you were kids, and is she still aggressive by nature now.
Also, do you have difficulty when people talk about how wonderful thier mothers are and were?

[SoupDragon]

Precisely.

[Donbean]

Sorry im fireing 100 questions at you at once, sorry.

[WigWamBam]

I was terrified of her, still am (and I'm 42, fgs!). I think that's why breaking away would be so hard, because I'd make myself ill worrying about it, worrying about what she thought and what she would be likely to do about it. She adores my dd, although I would never, ever leave her alone with dd. She's a lot more mellow now, but I would still never risk it. She's a better parent to my little sister than she ever was to me and my middle sister, and I think she thinks the fact that she was a good mum to the little one negates the fact that she screwed me and my other sister up big time.

She was very aggressive - she used to say about her dad that he would pick an argument with the stones in the street, yet she was just the same. She's not so aggressive now, but I still wouldn't want to end up in an argument with her. She says that she realised she was getting too physically violent with us when we were about 12 and 10, and so it wasn't so frequent after that, but then the emotional and verbal abuse started and that was worse. She hit my sister a few months ago in her own home; my sister was drunk and getting a bit hysterical so my mum slapped her - but didn't leave it at just a slap and my sister ended up with a black eye. So some things never change.

It doesn't really bother me when people talk about having idyllic childhoods, because I know that the way we were brought up wasn't normal even then. It annoys me when my mother tries to tell us that we didn't have a care in the world, but that's her with her selective memory again. What does bother me, though, is when people talk about mothers having unconditional love for their children, or saying things like "you only have one mother so you need to love and respect her".

[Donbean]

Ive got to go and get ready, me and dh are off out eating lots and lots.
Good to talk to you, will catch up another time.
Sorry again for bieng a gob on a key bourd.

[Donbean]

GOT TO REPLY to your last post though.....
Yes! thats what i meant, when people say "you only have one mum"etc. It does my head in big time and i must seem really odd to them when i just dont have any thing respectful to say about her.
I choose not to say any thing about her at all.
About 5 years ago she battered my sister for cutting a piece of meat in a way that she didnt like.......
She is unpredictable and just flies off on one.
Now we all have children and she is a much better granny than she ever was a mother although i wouldnt leave my son with her as she still has some of her agressive tendancies towards the grand kids. She has never hit any of them to my knowledge.
My middle sister unfortunately is very much like her and has an aggressive nature, my youngest sister unfortunately gets the brunt from my mother and is very scared of her. My mother dominates her unashamedly.
As kids we were always very scared of her. I can remember challenging her once and was balck and blue, i was about 15. She has always told me what a bad apple i am, and i didnt even know my name was x till i was about 5 and started school as she always called me "you". "you, get me this" "you, get me that" with absolute venum.
We were on the "at risk register" according to my granny, because of my dads aggression towards us, not my mothers! WTF!

[steffee]

I feel a bit guilty that I've brought all this stuff back for the two of you...

No similar experience but my mum had an awful childhood. Her dad beat her mum when he was drunk (daily) and in turn, her mum beat my mum and her sister. The stories she tells me are horrific. My mum also thought she'd gotten over it, she reasoned that she didn't harm me or my sister (which is true) so she must be ok, but just recently she's realised she's not over it (it's been obvious to us for a while) and she's now coming to terms with it properly.

My mum has no contact with her mum since she punched me in the face when I was 16 (8 years ago)! My dad gave her the option to see her but said she wasn't welcome in their house, so my mum broke contact which I presume was quite painful for her to do, but now she's very at ease and accepts that she'll never have a normal relationship with her mum. She's lost her sister over it though, as my mum's mum forced my mum's sister to choose between them, and still has a hold over my mum's sister.

This is all getting quite confusing and I haven't been in that situation so can't offer any real advise, but just wanted to add my (mum's) story!!

[steffee]

Also, Donbeam, just to add that everyone is different but my mum's mum DID hit me. She punched me in the face when I was 16 because my sister and I had gone to the shop (over the road, literally) and it started to pour down so we waited in the doorway for 10 minutes. When we came back she went crazy at us, saying she was worried sick as we were only babies (although we'd travelled 20 miles alone to visit her and we were only across the road!) and started ranting that my dad worked too much and took his aggression out on us (huh? so not true). I told her that was a cheeky thing to say and she punched me in the face! My sister was hysterical and I thought my dad was going to kill her when he found out, he was so mad (he didn't touch her though, in fact, he hasn't spoken to her since).

[Donbean]

No Steffee. dont feel bad. this is like a revolation to me to be able to speak to some one who knows what i am saying and understands.
I have found that this is a rare occurrance as mums are not usually like our mums are.
I thought i was the only one.
I wonder what has made them like that and like you mentioned there was a history of violence in the previous generation and so it goes on.
looking at me and indeed talking to me you would never know that this was my upbringing.
I have a succesful professional career, a gorgeous house and lovely husband and there is rarely a cross word spoken between us.
I dont have the temper that my mother had and i would never ever in this world talk to my child like she did us, nor would i enjoy the thought of my child bieng frightened of me as i believe that she was.
It doesnt have to go on generation after generation.

I would love to get drunk with my mother and just rip the whole thing open. The two of us, no holds barred, just thrash out the whys and werefores without her getting handy with the old fists.

My relationship with her is superficial and casual, thats how i like it for now.

[WigWamBam]

Steffee, don't worry about bringing it all back for us - I can only speak for me, but it never really ever went away. Your grandmother sounds very like my mum, and certainly I can relate to the fact that your mum thought she'd gotten over it all but hadn't. That's me too - I keep thinking I've gotten over it and worked it through, but then something else happens and I realise it's all still there. I'm glad that your mum had the courage to make the break from her when she attacked you - that would be the final straw for me, too. If she ever lays a finger on my dd, that would be the last time she saw either of us. She's never doing to my dd what she did to me.

I daren't challenge my mum at all when I was young; I still daren't now, if the truth be told. I grew up unable to put my side of an argument across because I'd never been allowed to as a child - right up into my late 20s I couldn't argue a point because (a) I couldn't believe I could possibly be right and (b) I'd never learned how to because I wasn't allowed to.

None of us have ended up aggressive, although sometimes I can feel myself getting short-tempered and I have to really work hard to control it. Something that my mother never did!

I had thrombocytopaenia when I was about 8 or 9, and one of the symptoms was that I was absolutely covered in bruises - any slight bit of pressure and I bruised almost instantly. I can remember then that they thought my mother had been hitting us (ironically, none of the bruises then were from being hit) and we were both taken into separate rooms in a hospital and questioned about whether our parents ever hit us. Both of us said no - because we thought that we would be taken away from her for a bit, but would then have to go back home, and we'd suffer for having told the truth. It was the only time we ever had the chance to get anyone on our side, and we were too scared of her to do anything about it.

[steffee]

I've had this discussion over and over with my mum as I know someone who has grown up in an abusive environment, and is now abusive in his own family, yet my mum is the most placid person you could meet. I don't understand how one person can react one way, yet someone else can react the opposite - I thought maybe men learn by example and go on to behave in the way they've been taught, and women are much more sensitive and go on determined not to repeat their parents abusive behaviours. (I realise how stereotypical and horrible that sounds, but I genuinely thought it might be an explanation)

My mum disagrees with me as her brother witnessed a little of what my mum went through (he was 9 years younger) and he is very gentle as an adult, so my mum reckons it's all down to education and self-awareness.

I don't know, it's a strange one.

[steffee]

WWB - my mum has said that too. Her Grandma phoned SS several times and they came out for a visit and asked my mum if she'd been hit by her parents but she didn't dare say as she thought she'd have to face her mum later on. Also, her mum had told her that if she said anything, she'd be split up from her sister and would never see her again, which terrified her.

[WigWamBam]

My grandfather was violent when my mother and her brothers were growing up, and she was the opposite - all of her brothers are extremely patient, gentle men who made decisions not to treat their children as their father had done. My mother was the eldest though, so she perhaps bore the brunt more than her brothers. Both myself and my sister were determined not to bring our own children up the way she brought us up. We have both done the exact opposite of every bit of parenting she ever did - I can't think of a single aspect where either of us do the same as our mother did.

[WigWamBam]

Yep - getting help was always going to end up with us getting worse treatment from her. And when you're only young, you can't see that there would be any benefit in trying to get help - I also wouldn't have known where to start asking for it.

[steffee]

Another explantion I've given is having someone there while you're growing up to give you an alternative example. My mum was very close to her Grandma (My great gran) who's very gentle and caring, so maybe she could see the differences in how people, though young, can perceive abuse. She always loved her Gran when she was a child but hated her Gran. The man I know has suffered abuse from all directions, and him and all his siblings have grown up to be aggressive adults.

[WigWamBam]

I don't remember there being any positive influences around us at the time - my dad didn't really get involved, and even now doesn't really appreciate how much went on. He saw her throw paddies and storm off, but she saved the really bad stuff for when he wasn't there. His parents were lovely people but we didn't see too much of them, so I don't know how much of an influence they might have been.

I think that what happens next and how a person ends up depends a lot on the character of the person who is abused - there has to be at least some part of a person's character that develops despite their parenting rather than because of it, and maybe it's that which determines whether someone goes on to become an abuser or not. If that makes any sense? I think it can also make a difference whether a person is abused or just witnesses abuse - perhaps someone who just witnesses abuse (a child whose father beats his mother, maybe) sees it as more normal, and is more likely to repeat it, than a child who is abused and sees the injustice of it?

[Donbean]

My God you two, you have said every thing that my family and i have said over the years. Spooky!

I absolutely 100% agree with you wwb regarding the witnessing abuse and actually bieng abused and the injustice attached to that.
I both witnessed my parents physically abusing each other and was physically and mentally abused myself. I knew both were not normal or right because of my friends families. I felt injustice and upset on every occassion.
My positive influence as i grew up was my nanna on my mums side and my auntie, (my mothers youngest sister) there is only 5 years between us and i am very close to her.
They treated me in a whole different way to the way i treated at home and i loved it.
I stuck to them like glue as a child, teenager and then as an adult, they are what has made me the way i am today.
To this day i cant argue a point. I am just too thick to know what i am talking about, am very easily talked down even when i have the courage to speak up in the first place.
I struggle every day with the feeling that i am just not good enough to be with the people surrounding me.

The only thing i think i am different to you is that i genuinely dont feel like there is any thing for me to "get over" as such. Things dont "bring it back to me" and i never really think about it all.
There is just the side of my personality that has been perminantly affected by it which i mentioned above.

My own parenting skills have been directly influenced by my upbringing and my mother in that i will do my absolute damdest to never ever be any thing like she was. I think im succeeding so far because im nothing like her.
I am what i am because of me and because i luckily got some kindness and love from other family members, not any thing to do with my parents.

[WigWamBam]

I sound as if I've got a bit of a chip on my shoulder about my mother and my need to "get over" things, don't I! On the whole I'm reasonably well balanced and it's all pretty much in the past now, but every now and again something happens in my life (or with my sister) that brings it all back, or brings back another memory, and it all comes flooding back - and I end up feeling as small and useless as I did when I was young. Particularly since I had dd, because I know that there is no way I could ever treat my dd like I was treated - I know how easily confidence and self-esteem is damaged, and how long the damage can last. It screwed my childhood and a lot of my adult life up, and I don't understand how anyone could chose to do that to a child. I look at my happy, outgoing, confident 4 year old and I just can't understand how or why anyone could knock that out of a child.

I only ever wanted to please my mother, and I didn't manage to do that right up until I was in my 30s - by which time it was too late. I spent my childhood as one of the best behaved children I've ever seen, because I was terrified of what would happen if I was naughty. I always worked really hard at school to please her, yet it still wasn't enough for her. I think there's still a big part of me that wants to please her, even now, and I don't really understand that, either!

I've never felt good enough, and I can't take compliments either because I genuinely don't believe I deserve them. My dh is always telling me not to be so down on myself, and although he knows why I'm like I am, he can't see why the nice things he says haven't undone the nasty stuff. The damage that's done in a young child lasts a lifetime.

I don't believe that I'm thick; I know that I'm a reasonably intelligent person - but I do tend to think that other people will think I'm stupid, so often don't get involved in an intelligent debate for fear of making an arse of myself. I don't find it easy to make friends or to feel comfortable with other people either, I'm always convinced that they'll find me boring or unintelligent company.

I'm actually lucky that I didn't end up even more damaged than I did; my sister bottled it all up for years and then hit the bottle when it all got too much.