racism, judgement on 'ethnic' names?

[missytequila]

While going through the great name debate for my daughter due in a few weeks, I have had a few people say that with a 'difficult to pronounce' african surname... that we MUST have a first name that is 'english/european' or else risk her being discriminated against.

Would love to know what mumsnetters think... I am mixed european descent, hubby is west african. Is judgement still passed these days on names?

For example is Alice Kweli far better than Afia Kweli?

Would like honesty, am not offended either way, in fact we like a handful of both african and european names...just wondering what you thought....

[AllieW]

I don't think there is any MUST about it. Go with whichever name you like. If other folk have a problem with that then that is their problem. Why should you kowtow to the possible racism of others?

Afia is more unusual and I like it very much (she could have the rather sweet nn of Affie). If you did have concerns, you could give her a more European middle name (acknowledging your ancestry) and that would give her the choice.

[Blu]

I believe that some research was done on this quite recently, with researchers sending out identical CVs and monitoring the responses. It was v depressing- with CVs with one part of the name being European doing better than ones where both names were of non-western or non-uk tradition. I remember reading that one half of the name 'reassured' the employer that the candidate was 'integrated' or 'assimilated'. I can't remember where I read about this, but it was either in the Guardian or Observer, and within the last year.

Deeply depressing.

But then there is a regular stream of threads on Mn sniggering at children's names which are common in other cultures or countries.

Personally I would go with what you like best...the best lesson for the baby-name threads is that whatever you choose, someone will not like it!

Congratulations on your approaching birth

[Blu]

Yes, Afia is a lovely name, and Kweli is hardly difficult to pronounce and spell!

[ToccataAndFudge]

oh - sod 'em

I have the most unprnouncable surname imaginable from Zimbabwe.

My DS's all have Shona first names.

[heQet]

Kweli means truth in kiswahili, doesn't it?

I'm british, my husband is Kenyan. Our surname is odd by british 'standards' (standards not right word I suppose, but you know what I mean )

We've gone with unusual names because with our surname, I think a plain old name would sound odd

John Haki would sound really strange, imo.

[itmustbebedtime]

If I was in your position, I'd probably go for a first name that is european (as that is your descent) and the surname is african (your husband's descent). Not for reasons of discrimination or anything like that, just that the child is a product of both of you so 1st name and surname reflect that.

Having said that, if you went for an african first name, I would go for one that is:

-spelt as it sounds
-not going to prompt the response of "pardon?" every time child tells someone their name

really just for simplicity (I like simple names that are easy to spell regardless of origin)

[TheFirstLady]

I am Irish, DH is English and all our children have "unpronouncable" Irish names. It is important to me that as they will grow up in England that they have something to connect them to my half of their heritage. We chose to give them traditional English middle names though so that they could use them instead if they got tired of spelling their names all the time. I would choose the names you like and not bother second-guessing other peoples' reactions.

[ToccataAndFudge]

oh I don't know HeQet - I taught plenty of "john Mudarikwa" type - and a large number with European surnames and Shona/Ndbele first names.

[LadyBlaBlah]

Honestly? I would go for the European name. The research is pretty conclusive that there is discrimination based on people's names. And it is significant discrimination too. Sad. But true.

[AllieW]

Quite, ToccataAndFudge. Not that that makes a blind bit of sense really, since many of our so-called English names are actually from the Hebrew, Latin or Greek! (I doubt that many people would use REALLY old English names like Ethelred etc though.)

[heQet]

"the research is pretty conclusive that there is discrimination based on people's names. And it is significant discrimination too."

really? That's quite alarming!

[AllieW]

But how are we going to combat those attitudes if everybody just gives in? Surely we don't want our children growing up in a world like that?

[MaisietheMorningsideCat]

I would agree with an earlier poster - whatever name you give your child, please make sure it sounds as it's pronounced! We are the only people in Scotland with our surname, so spend our entire time correcting pronounciation and spelling. We decided to go easy on the DCs by giving them first names which didn't require the same level of explanation. I also like the idea of reflecting both nationalities by giving your DD a european first name.

[TweedyneeCole]

I would say ignore the comments and choose the name you like. To be honest, I would go the other way and make sure they had at least one name - even if it is middle name - that reflects their heritage.

Why pander to the discrimination? @LadyBlahBlah. I think that's a horrific idea.

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

Do you know that never occured to me? DH asked that our children have his surname and islamic first names which I agreed to - his reasoning was that as they would be brought up here in the UK they would be more english than his nationality so giving them a fully arabic name would cement their identity. I'm glad we did tbh, if DS had an english first name nobody would ever believe he wasn't purely english caucasian from his looks and I like him being unusual.

However I agree in that you should choose a name that is easily read and pronounced. Nothing that people will worry about sayiong out loud in an interview!

Oh and don't pander to the prejudice. I will do my best to raise my children to be proud of their identities and to be confident in their abilities so that preducice won't affect them!

[ToccataAndFudge]

" Nothing that people will worry about sayiong out loud in an interview!"

you mean like my surname - have to say these days a lot more people do attempt to pronounce it (and more and more are getting closer to the mark with it) - but for the first 5yrs (maybe more) of being back in the UK with my new surname everyone just used to say "First name..........I'm sorry I don't know how to pronounce your surname" - everyone from doctors surgeries (where they had a system where ou name was called out), to schools, banks, businesses - they all used to chicken out on the surname.

That's interesting what you say about the cultural identity thing. My DS's are English born and bred, but they are also half Zimbabwean, it was really pure chance that they ended up with Shona first names, as our chosen first and middle names worked best wit h the Shona name first. But you're right it does cement their identity more as being half Zimbabwean.

[Mammaka]

It's not right, and it is not nice, but you asked the question whether there is judgement based on names and IME there most definitely still is.

Personally I had real trouble once I was establishing my career due to a very unusal name which is hard to say and spell - so much so that I have changed it to something easy and English for work purposes.

Having worked for two different massive organisations and also 2 small local ones before that, I have to report that when recruitment was going on and cvs came in, a lot were judged on their names and assumptions were made about people based on their names and background.

I am sure you won't choose a name becuase of this issue alone, but that is my answer to your question. Bonkers, but true.

[Slambang]

I had a similar decision (foreign surname and wanting first names from both mine and dh's cultures). In the end we gave our dcs two first names one from dh's culture, one from mine and they each have both our surnames. E.g Jane Meryam Albibi Smith (so she can be Jane Smith or Meryam Albibi). That way they could write their full names on forms or choose only to use one or the other first names depending on what country they were job seeking in.

I was very aware of the research about CVs with foreign names getting less invitations to interviews despite equal qualifications. The research has been replicated again recently.

[ToccataAndFudge]

but if you've got a foreign surname sure it doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether it's a "British" first name or not - if they're going to discriminate on names the surname will be a give away even if you have a Henry George James Imbayago?

[SoupDragon]

I think it's a sad truth that such discrimination does exist. However, that is not a reason to ignore your family's culture and go for a name you don't love.

Mind you, I worked in a conservative environment with a very successful Nigerian woman who had done just fine despite having a Nigerian first name and an unpronounceable/spellable maiden name followed by an equally unpronounceable/spellable married one.

If you love "Alice" fine. If you love "Afia", go with that.

[Mammaka]

I suppose there are degrees of unusualness. I used to have foreign first name and foreign surname.

I married someone with the simplest and plainest English surname I could find and things got easier. Then I changed my first name too and things were easier still.

I was aware that people called Mr Foreign Foreign were dismissed without a glance whereas Mr John Foreign did get half a glance on the grounds that he probably had foreign parents but he might be English. So it did make a difference.

[missytequila]

Toccata fudge--- I totally agree with the 'not attempting the surname'. It happens to me now, as I have taken my husbands surname...and people just avoid saying it and call me by my first.

By the way our surname is not Kweli, I was just using an example, sorry but i like being anonymous on this site

While I do understand the research about CV's, my question is.... would she not be judged simply by the surname anyway?

John Smith will be better received than Ashwin Sikka.. unfortunately that may be the hard truth, but does James Sikka really make a difference? Is not the surname the indicator anyway?

I do like a few of the african first names, but am worried about people not pronouncing either.
Toccata- are the shona first names pronouncable?

[slightlystressed]

Both my kids have italian first and second names, anyone who wouldn't let them have job interview based on this alone isn't worth working for.

Go with what you want. Lots of successful people in UK with foreign first and surnames.

[heQet]

re the not attempting the surname thing - when I am feeling in need of entertainment I remain silent as they stutter through it

In my defence though, my life is VERY boring.

[tiredlady]

I think when applying for jobs, a name that is "foreign" in both first and surname would go down worse than a name which had an obviously european bit in it.

This was investigated at some length some years ago by 2 junior doctors who sent off identical CVs, one had a british name, the other was an asian name.The results were disgraceful. As a result of that I know 2 doctors who anglisized their names so as not to be discriminated against. FWIW both these blokes were born and brought up in england.

I agree you don't want to pander to this kind of racism, but you need to be aware of the effect of your ultimate choice.

Afia is a beautiful name btw