Does the 20 week scan tell you any more about risk of down's?

[Wobblewatcher]

I should know the answer to this but I don't.

I'm 17 weeks pg with second baby and down's ratio is 1:524. NT normal.

I'm low risk I know but still a bit concerned. Will next scan tell us any more? TIA.

[Sparklies]

Yes, if no soft markers are detected, your risk generally halves. They won't do more than that.

If you weren't already screen positive (and you're not) I doubt they would mention anything about your risk. I had a clear ultrasound and my risk went from 1 in 34 to 1 in 70.

If soft markers are detected then your risk will get worse, depending on what the markers are, how bad they are, and how many of them there are. There's quite a lengthy list. Some are really mild and probably don't indicate a problem unless there's a lot of them, and others are really bad like certain heart conditions, at least one of which can raise your risk to as high as 1 in 2. Usually if anything is spotted a consultant materialises and will explain it all to you and what your options are. Most people's scans are absolutely perfectly clear.

I would have thought with your odds and a clear ultrasound you could be as sure as is possible without invasive testing that your baby is fine. Even with one soft marker, so long as it's not a nasty one, you could be pretty much certain too as soft markers pop up for all sorts of benign reasons.

Good luck!

[Wobblewatcher]

Thanks thats great guys

[RememberToPlaywiththeKids]

sorry to gate crash. i was given 1 in 5 odds and then at 20 week scan a cardiac defect was found. does anyone know if that makes it a dead cert that baby has downs?

[Sparklies]

Remember - I don't know :( Did they say anything at the time? Some heart defects automatically increase the risk to 1 in 2 regardless of anything else. You can't get higher odds than that.

But - somebody I know on another forum had similar.. bad bloods, soft markers, and then the heart defect. Pretty damning it seemed - but her baby had typical chromosomes and was fine once the defect was fixed! So don't lose hope :)

[Ormirian]

At 20 weeks we were told that DS2 had one of the soft markers for Downs - CPCs (choroid plexus cysts) on the brain. But they had faded after 2 weeks.

[RememberToPlaywiththeKids]

Thanks sparklies.
It's hard not knowing and hard anticipating and how we'll feel etc.

[Sparklies]

Remember I can't remember - did you ever consider getting a late amnio just so it's not something that you have to face on delivery day? Although my odds are so much less than yours, it's what we're doing at 32 weeks just so we know either way and can prepare.

How far along are you now?

I remember reading somewhere (can't remember if it was here or a Babycenter board) about a mother that was fully expecting a baby with Down syndrome, the odds were overwhelming, and she didn't have invasive testing. Her baby was born with the typical number of chromosomes and she actually found herself grieving the baby with Down syndrome she had prepared herself for. Human brains are weird like that!

[RememberToPlaywiththeKids]

oh yes i remember reading about her too.

We only have a couple of weeks to go, so won't worry about it now. How is the waiting for you? Are you ok?

[Sparklies]

Glad the wait is nearly at an end for you! Yes, if you haven't done it and there's just a few weeks to go I guess there isn't quite as much point.

How are you holding up? I can't imagine the stress.

I've just gone 25 weeks and the amnio is a day before 32 weeks, so about 7 weeks to wait until we find out for sure. I have good days and bad days - some days I'm all "Of course it will be fine" but then I get days where I am convinced this baby is "the one" no matter what. I do wonder if we have another if I get a bad screening again I will get a CVS because this wait is just horrible and exhausting. But I was so attached to this little one at 12 weeks so I just couldn't bring myself to risk it, so realistically I would probably feel the same the next time too.

[RememberToPlaywiththeKids]

Do you know, I was just thinking about that last night and I know that I would do the same again because the alternative is potentially so much worse. I just couldn't risk it. Someone I know knows 2 people who miscarried after amnios. It could well be coincidence and would have happened anyway but I just couldn't get it out of my head.

Pregnancy is very fruaght isn't it??

[Sparklies]

I don't know anyone personally who has miscarried after an amnio, but a lady who was due the same time as me on another board was 1 in 6 so got the amnio, and a few days later her baby died and so far they don't know why. The amnio was clear :( I really hope they can find an answer for her that it wasn't amnio related because it must be such a horrible and hard thing to live with. She already has 3 girls and this was a boy. So devastated for her. If she never gets any answers she's always going to wonder. I just don't think I could deal with that - I can do a 20 week wait (ha ha - the two week wait has nothing on this!) rather than face that situation.

All that avoiding wine and cheeses then people go and stick needles in the amniotic sac Of course, I know it's a lot more complicated than that but it amuses me slightly all the same!

[Blu]

afaik the only way to know for certan whether there is a chromosome condition (such as Downs Syndrome and other trisomies) is by amnio or CVS. All a picture of a heart defect can tell you for definite is that there is a heart defect. Many of which can be very easily repaired.

re soft markers. Soft markers are basically vague unproven possible slight links to conditions - they don't prove anything. DS had 'soft markers' in the form of echogenic focii and talipes. Echogenic focii just means bits that show up on the scan, caused by little collections of calcium. They are absolutely harmless in themselves, and many NT babies have them. Talipes on a scan can easily be 'positional' - caused by the baby being squashed in one position, and sorted out through physio, (in actual fact DS's talipes was caused by a missing bone in his leg) - so the soft markers apparantly suggesting an increase risk of Down's actully meant and NT baby with a dodgy leg - but according to the scan the leg could have been much less of a problem than it was.

Also, the sonographer who did my amnio (overseen by prof Nicolaides) said that they can tell there and thn if the baby has been put at risk by the amnio - they can see the needle do whatever it shouldn't do. And the risk is tiny if done by an experienced person in a specialist unit. It in't a blanket risk across all hospitals / doctors.

[Effilump]

Sparklies I was in your shoes a few months ago, a 1 in 5 refused further testing and just got on with it. I found it hard to bond with the baby, had good days and bad, a feeling of dread would creep over me on the bad days when I convinced myself the baby had Downs, then me pulling myself together, and saying that the baby had no obvious heart probs or other markers so was fine. It was so stressful! Then the baby was born, and whisked into NNICU, I knew then he did indeed have Downs, but I didnt care, what mattered then was that he was ok. Eventually he was, and he is a joy, but I do think if I ever had another high risk during pregnancy, I would be tested. Just not knowing was bloody hard work for me!
Good luck and all the best for the rest of your pregnancy!

[Sparklies]

Thanks for sharing your story Effilump! Yes, it certainly is a horrible wait and it does make the pregnancy very different from a "normal" pregnancy. Congratulations on your precious little boy and I am so glad he is okay now

I still don't know if I would test in a subsequent pregnancy. It has been horrible waiting but I do keep on hearing amnio/CVS loss stories and so I just don't know! It would be a horrible thing to have to live with.

[jellybeans]

Hi we recieved positive high risk screen for one of my babies at about 16 weeks. We had a scan and all seemed OK. But I couldn't shake the worry. We didn't want an amnio as had already lost a baby at 24 weeks to a chromosome disorder and I had been through amnios etc with that pregnancy as was forced into it (not literally but there was in utero treatment which could have saved her life but we had to have an amnio first or they wouldn't try it). So we paid privately for a scan which lowered our risk 4 fold. There are private scans which measure bones etc. I still worried though and sadly we lost the baby the day we should have had the 20 week scan. But it was not related to the triple test, she didn't have downs or any other disorder.