to wonder if contact is always in the best interests of the child

[paddleduck]

Before I start I should say, I have no first hand experience, obviously do not know these people personally and accept my opinion may be unreasonable given the above.

Yesterday I took my dc to a soft play with some friends. While there a set of grandparents came in, closely followed by a couple and another boy of school age. The grandad was carrying a little girl of about 3 or 4 who was hysterical. She looked petrified and was clinging to her grandpa with white hands. She couldn't breathe for her sobs and she was drenched in her own tears. She just kept screaming 'I want to go home' 'no no no' and whenever the man from the couple approaches her, she begins screaming 'no please.. go away.. Don't want you!'

I found it so difficult to listen to her sobs, it really made my heart ache for her. Her grandparents kept cuddling her and talking softly, periodically trying to put her down and encourage her to engage with this couple. The woman part of said couple just kept standing around with her hands in her pockets rolling her eyes and huffing, man kept doing silly faces etc trying to engage little girl.

Any who, my friend visits this softplay weekly and said she'd explain when we left.

Friend explains that it is 'contact' .. The man is her dad. Woman is new wife and school child is new wife's son from previous relationship. Older couple are paternal grandparents. Dad was violent and hurt the little girls mum, so they have split and grandparents meet with the dad for supervised contact weekly. She says this softplay scenario happens every week for around 8 months now, with the little girl being distraught at every visit. - she knows this because the mother of the little girl is her aunties life long friend.

I found the whole thing so upsetting to watch and haven't stopped thinking of that little girl. The more I consider the situation the more I feel that after so long of these awful contact sessions, it would be in the child's best interests for the dad to leave her alone. To remain contactable for when she is older, if she wants to.. but that if a child finds being in your presence that distressing then that's not good to keep putting g her through that. I understand how difficult that would be as a parent. . But I almost felt it was selfish of him to keep pushing her like that. Long term she will anticipate the meetings with anxiety and they may never make progress like this? Of course he could have just not been a violent partner in the first place and my disgust over knowing what he's done makes me want to say he doesn't deserve access.. but if he's getting it someone obviously deems him not a risk to the little girl right? And presumably he has PR


Anyway. . Am I bu to think he should walk away?

[LadySybilLikesCake]

I think you are, sorry. You don't know if that child's mother has turned the poor girl away from her father, she could have been having a bad day, a temper tantrum or whatever. You've seen a snapshot, a couple of minutes into a child's life, nothing more. It's easy to make assumptions based on a couple of minutes, but they are not always right.

[CatsCantTwerk]

LadySybilLikesCake has it spot on.

Yabu, You think you know the whole story through seeing 5 minutes of their lives and listening to gossip.

[paddleduck]

You are quite right, I only saw a small snapshot and without the info given by a friend, what I saw was dad trying to engage and interact, and just a very difficult and upsetting situation for them all. I very much sympathise in the sense that it must be heartbreaking to have your own child reject you like that.

But I had to wonder with the little info I was told and what I saw, if the interests of the parent where being prioritised over little girls current needs. .


As I saw though.. totally willing to accept I'm being unreasonable. It's just been playing on my mind since.. she was so so upset. :(

[Pyjamaramadrama]

No of course contact isn't always in the best interests.

Even parents who have physically and sexually abused their children and had them taken into care will be given supervised contact until such time comes that the children are adopted.

It's not always right.

[InanimateCarbonRod]

YANBU. My DN was the same at every visit. She was refusing the visitations. Now age 13 she hasn't seen her father in 4 years and she a happier, more relaxed child. All the anxiety is gone. Forcing contact would have damaged her IMO.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

Perfectly understandable I've worked with children though and have seen a fair few tell their primary carer (mother and father) to 'go away because I don't want you'. It doesn't mean they are serious. A tired child is hard work, and will fly off the handle at the silliest thing. I remember ds having a tantrum because I wouldn't let him bang his head on the stone tiles in my kitchen when he was small .

[paddleduck]

Ladysybil - I actually work with children too, which I think is why this has been playing on my mind so much. Also I have a dc the same age as this girl which I suppose always feels a bit more sensitive!

[Thumbwitch]

It might have been a snapshot for the OP but her friend had seen it regularly, so not such a snapshot, and knew the background of DV that the little girl had witnessed, so not such an assumption.

I do not have first hand experience either but I can't see that it is ever in the child's best interests to be forced to have contact with a violent and/or abusive parent - I just can't. If they want to, then yes, let them have supervised contact - but if they don't want to (and this little girl appears to be actively scared of her father) and there is good reason not to (the abuse) then no, I don't think it's good for them.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

In cases of DV contact is usually supervised or via a contact centre though. I wouldn't rely on second hand gossip.

In cases where the NRP is abusive or violent it's not good to maintain contact. IMO contact is for the benefit of the child, not for the parent. Ds is 15 and stopped seeing his father when he was 11. His father has anger issues. He's not violent but he can fly off the handle easily and become verbally abusive, as he did the last time he saw ds. The time before he took ds to the cinema and was so hung over he fell asleep. He'd see ds every 18 months or less and contact in between was practically none existent. It was never my choice though so I left it until ds was old enough to decide for himself.

[Thumbwitch]

But this IS supervised contact, LadySybil - the child'd grandparents are supervising.

[weatherall]

I don't think violent men should have a right to contact.

It's a bizarre system we have where known to be violent men are not only allowed but encouraged and court ordered to be around children.

I trust mums and believe that in the vast vast majority if cases mums will do what is best for their children in terms of allowing contact. I trust them to have the right to say no to contact they know is not in their children's best interests because of abuse from their ex.

If the system was really about what is best for the DCs then maintenance would be properly enforced. But it's not. Because the legal system is run by men for men's benefit.

Women and children are treated as second class citizens.

We really haven't moved on from 19th century attitudes and laws as we think.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

Fair enough, but just because he was violent towards the child's mum it doesn't mean he's violent towards his daughter. No one really knows what went on, maybe the violence was a push? It's very hard to say without knowing all of the facts.

[SaucyJack]

I think in that particular situation YABU. Many, many, many men are violent towards their partners- this on its own isn't a good enough reason to stop contact. Most violent partners are also perfectly capable of being loving fathers when it suits them.

Obviously if the father has abused the child themselves or is so disinterested as to be damaging to the child's self-esteem, then YANBU.

The situation sounds as if it being handled badly tho tbf.

[Pyjamaramadrama]

Ladysybil a man who can treat his child's mother with such contempt as to be violent towards her is not going to make the best parent or a good role model.

I hate that old line he hurt her but he'd never hurt his kids. Part of being a parent is to model to your children how to treat others.

My ex 'pushed' me for spilling Doritos dip on a duvet cover, he also pushed me for sitting on the bed and sofa after he'd made them/plumped the cushions up imagine him up against a mucky toddler.

[Thumbwitch]

I guess it would depend on whether or not the DD had witnessed the violence, wouldn't it? Whether or not the man had been violent to her directly, if she saw her mum being bashed, that would be enough for her to not want to be alone with him. The OP doesn't say that of course, I'm just speculating now, but being witness to violence is abuse in itself, isn't it?

[Pyjamaramadrama]

I don't believe for a second that a violent partner can be a loving father. How the fuck does that even work? "Sorry son but I love you, you don't mind if I just beat the shit out of you mum though".

[inabranstonpickle]

I think there needs to be a distinction drawn between whether violent men have a right to see their children (I would argue no except in extreme circumstances) and whether contact should be limited because it is distressing for the child (I would argue this in itself is not a good reason.)

So - aibu to think this violent man shouldn't have seen his daughter? No. Aibu to think this man shouldn't see his daughter because she does not want to see him? Yes.

Aside - I think the gossip is out of order

[Pyjamaramadrama]

So what it's ok if he beat her when the dc's are in bed? What if he'd knocked her over she'd bashed her head and died?

Of course DV is abusive to the children as well as their mum, whether they witness it or not.

The ignorance around DV really saddens me.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

No one knows what the violence was, it's a bit like calling someone a sex offender for life because their girlfriend sent him a nude picture when they were both 15. No one knows what happened. He could have pushed her and she fell, or he could have battered her. There's a thousand and one things that he could have done, it doesn't mean he's a bad father though.

[SaucyJack]

My ex raped me and then beat me up half way through because I wasn't enjoying it enough if we're playing Trauma Top Trumps pyjama.

That doesn't stop him from having a positive, reasonably worthwhile relationship with our DDs. His relationship with them is entirely separate to the relationship we had.

[MrsRedWhite214]

This man could be seen as being abusive for one simple mistake (his ex could be trying to damage his character too!). I feel sorry for him being judged like this.

To the poster who said they trust mums always - what?!! You are being sexist yourself! Mums don't always know what's right. Dads are sometimes the better support for their children. The mum might be manipulating her little girl - psychologically abusing her and making her scared of her own dad. I knew a woman who constantly told her son that daddy didn't love him.

I feel there is no reason this man shouldn't see his child. My son cries whenever I pick him up from nursery - does that make me a bad mum?

Parents can make some awful mistakes, but cutting contact should be a last resort.

[Pyjamaramadrama]

I'm not playing trauma top trumps whatever that means. There's no monopoly on bad experiences.

I don't believe that a man who is capable of what you describe could ever have anything positive to offer to a child. It's my opinion and personal experience.

[bibliomania]

I've spent years asking myself this. My dd has contact with her father, and there are both positive and negative aspects, and I've agonised about when the negative outweighs the positive.

Positive: He is very loving to her, he cuddles her and tells her he loves her and always will, he is proud of her and buys her lots of things.

Negative: Some previous issues that I think have now been dealt with. Ongoing - he constantly tells her how evil I am and how I'm trying to drive him away/get him killed/taken away by the police. He's told her many times that I don't really love her, that I'm a witch and I'm planning to kill her (she tells me she believed this back when she was 4 and 5 but now that she's a big girl of 6 she doesn't believe it any more). He's been similarly negative to her about my parents, which has impacted on her relationship with them. He's made many, many false reports about me to the police and the SS, to the point where SS proposed to court that he undergo an intervention to help him "manage his anxiety" (he hasn't complied, but there are no sanctions).

This is more than 5 years after I left him, so it's not like he's struggling with the immediate aftermath of a split.

I don't have any choice about contact - CAFCASS, SS and judges are all aware of the issues (CAFCASS and SS have been clear they accepted this as a true description) and have still said there must be frequent staying contact. Dd wants the contact and regularly asks for more contact. Because her father puts such heavy pressure on her to choose sides, I feel I have to keep emphasising that she can have both parents in her life.

Is the contact doing more harm than good? I honestly don't know. Even if I were firmly convinced that it is more harmful than beneficial, I've got to the stage where legally, my hands are now tied, unless something changes dramatically. All I can do is hope for the best and keep one eye always open for the worst.

[Nanny0gg]

Many, many, many men are violent towards their partners- this on its own isn't a good enough reason to stop contact

Well it bloody well should be! If he can't be respectful towards a woman, especially the mother of his child then I do not in any way see what benefit contact would be to that child.

[Nanny0gg]

Aibu to think this man shouldn't see his daughter because she does not want to see him? Yes

Why? It's hardly in the same context as making her eat her vegetables.

I don't see (if we take the OP's post at face value) what possible benefit there is in putting her through that distress every week. It's not going to make her love her dad, is it?