kids who do ks2 at state schools should have priority over prep school kids at 11+

(270 Posts)
marmitecat Sun 10-Nov-13 14:01:49

That would make grammar schools more attainable for poorer kids and those that can afford prep school don't need to take places away from normal families.

KwaziiCat Sun 10-Nov-13 14:17:42

I think it could make sense as Inknow quite a few prep school kids (through my job) who learn non/verbal reasoning, which is usually an integral part of the test and it's unfair to children in state schools in that regard.

AntlersInAllOfMyDecorating Sun 10-Nov-13 14:22:41

Or remove grammar schools.

MerylStrop Sun 10-Nov-13 14:23:25

Hmm, but then what about the kids who go to state primaries and then have private tuition?

Also I don't think access to grammar schools should be means-tested, which is the logical conclusion of what you're suggesting, if you play it through.

Abolish all selection on criteria of ability, faith and ability to pay, and then we might be getting somewhere

SanityClause Sun 10-Nov-13 14:29:47

Not all independent junior schools are hot houses preparing children for grammar schools, you know.

Also, you'll find lots of people send their DC to a prep, knowing that they can't afford to pay for private schooling throughout, so they invest in junior school to give the best chance of not having to pay for senior school. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing, but just pointing out that just because you can afford a prep school doesn't mean you can afford a private senior school.

WooWooOwl Sun 10-Nov-13 14:38:39

I think it would be very wrong to penalise children based on their parents decisions.

Some parents only use private school because they don't have access to a good primary.

Either way, private school parents contribute to the tax system and their children have the same rights as any other children. You can't deny parents the use of a system that they actively contribute to.

You may as well state that higher rate tax payers should have priority for primary school places, which of course would be ridiculous. But it's no different to your proposal to penalise children because of their parents.

I think the paying field would be better levelled at 11+ by requiring prep schools to give free tuition to state school pupils in exchange for their charity status.

Bonsoir Sun 10-Nov-13 14:42:39

If you do that, you are on the way to a system where DC in state and DC in private school do not ever mix between the two. And that is dreadful, IMO.

Boaty Sun 10-Nov-13 14:44:23

My DS1 went to prep school...on a scholarship...we come from what would be termed underclass background! Under that proposal he would have been 'held' back as privileged.
DS2 and DD went to state primaries..preparation consisted of one lunchtime session, a week before the tests. Parents therefore had to do the preparation themselves or get tutors. Children of parents who don't have the means or education to do this are automatically at a disadvantage.
Opening more grammars would help as the clamour to get kids into them shows a demand. Regardless of opinions on private v state and grammar v comp there is a undeniable high level of competition for places.
Entries at 11, 12 and 13 even 14 up to GCSE choices time would allow for different childrens' development as would the tests in conjunction with reports and SAT levels.
Mine ended up instead on bursaries, having passed entry tests, to selective indies but failing 11+. They used verbal/non verbal reasoning as only part of the selection.

JackNoneReacher Sun 10-Nov-13 14:50:22

Penalise children for going to prep school? Where would it end? Children with tutors? Children with a teacher parent? A parent with a degree? Unfair and unworkable. (and there would be a huge influx of children to state school in yr 5)!

normal families for that alone YABU.

TwitTwooShoe Sun 10-Nov-13 15:29:19

But children at prep school aren't the average/the norm, are they? Only 7% of children under 16 are in an independent school, and the large majority are in secondary.

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 15:30:47

Yanbu loooong over due.

An hour of week of tutoring is nothing compared to a private eduction particularly(small classes,no disruption,no NC restrictions)if it is in a prep school which teaches to the 11+.If your primary delivers shit literacy and numeracy there is fuck all a bit of tutoring will do.

I don't think we need worry re the poor little children missing out due to the decisions of their parents.Nobody cares re kids in shitty schools due to the decision of their parents.Those at private prep can go onto private secondary or they could go to state primary like everybody else and have a go at the 11+.

I think a ban on private entries would push up results in local state primaries too.

Bring it on!

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 15:36:23

It would easy to police too unlike tutoring which those unfortunate enough to be in the lesser primary schools actually need a bit of if they are to cover some of the content in time.

WooWooOwl Sun 10-Nov-13 15:40:07

No, not every child at private prep will go to private secondary. The increase in fees is huge when they get to secondary and lots of parents that could afford it for primary wont be able to afford it for secondary.

And what are you on about with 'nobody cares re kids in shitty schools? That's crap!

'Shitty' schools benefit from improvement plans and often high levels of pupil premium money, and people do care. None of us want the children of this country to be under educated or see anything be taken away from disadvantaged kids. But plenty want to take away from children that are perceived to have a little more in the way of financial support. It's horrible.

LegoStillSavesMyLife Sun 10-Nov-13 15:43:54

Loving the fact we are not a normal family. Just loving it.

Any school worth it's salt will take into account the child's educational background when making the decision.

BrianTheMole Sun 10-Nov-13 15:44:30

Either way, private school parents contribute to the tax system and their children have the same rights as any other children. You can't deny parents the use of a system that they actively contribute to.

This. Although I'm more than happy to duck out of the state system completely as long as I don't have to contribute to it through my tax. If I contribute to it then my children have the right to use it.

TwitTwooShoe Sun 10-Nov-13 15:46:51

Lego but the fact is you aren't a normal (typical/average) family. 7% of children are educated privately. I am planning to privately educate at secondary and that is not in any way normal for the UK. As 93/100 kids will be going to a state school (or be home educated, I guess) then a normal family has children going to state school.

candycoatedwaterdrops Sun 10-Nov-13 15:47:31

Retropear Wow, you sound like you have a massive chip on your shoulder. You do know that children born into families who can afford private primary schools have no more choice in the matter than children born into families who cannot afford private primary schools?!

OP, YABvU. I had well educated, intelligent parents who dedicated huge amounts of time to promoting and supporting my education. My mum, in particular, spent many hours with me throughout my entire education. That put me at a massive advantage to some of my peers. I didn't go to a grammar school nor apply but do you see where I am going with this?

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 16:41:07

Brian you can use it,the idea is just not the local grammar after buying your way in.You're perfectly entitled to use the local comp like everybody else,nobody would be stopping you.

It's easy you send your kid to the local primary too and then get a bash at the 11+(on a level playing field). That way you get double the value for money.

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 16:44:05

Candy errr no more choice, I think not.grinYou have the choice between private and state.The majority have only the choice of state and many have no choice in that either,not being able to afford to buy their way through property into the best state schools either .

No chip here just acknowledging the valid point of the op.

BrianTheMole Sun 10-Nov-13 16:52:54

Yeah yeah Retro, I pay my taxes, my kids get to use the state schools or I make the choice to pay twice. You don't get to make that choice for me. I'm quite happy to have an exam based on logic and impossible to prep for though, to give everyone a fair chance. Because fwiw, if my children weren't up to the grammar school, I wouldn't actually want them to go anyway.

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 17:02:34

But going to private gives you far more of an advantage than a bit of prep from a tutor.

Prepping is nothing compared to being pushed further during your primary years in tiny classes,with top teaching,no NC restrictions,no disruption,better resources etc and coming out more numerate and literate.

Prepping a bit of verbal reasoning will not get bright kids from the crappiest or even the average primaries into grammar. They won't cover the maths required for a start let alone VR and as for writing an essay in comparison to a child from a top prep- come on.It's nothing to do with intelligence.

That is why people like you pay to go private,it's hardly for the good of your health is it.grin

It has been said but it is worth repeating a lot of parents can afford private prep but not afford private secondary - for various reason:
- eg.
* change of family cercumstances
* that private secondary can be 2 or 3 times as expensive as an independent primary school.

Not all preps hot house for 11+ and many children in state schools do 1 or 2 years additional private tuition.
And there can be various reasons please choose independed prep school.

I think the better ideas are to get rid of the totally selective system that we have in KENT!
Places with less grammars have far better all inclusive (High) schools such as Balcarras in CHeltenham.

BrianTheMole Sun 10-Nov-13 17:09:33

Its not for the good of my health no. But seeing as the choices open to me was a local school that was failing, or the private school, i took the private school. Not all state schools are equal you know. Where exactly do you draw the line with that. People move house to get near a good school. You don't think they should be penalized then? If your answer is no, then it will because you fall in to that category, or you already live near a good state. If i lived near a reasonable state primary we would use it. But we don't.

Retropear Sun 10-Nov-13 17:11:15

They have a grammar in Cheltenham don't they and I'd love to know the house prices in the catchment area for Balcarras.

Also sorry no sympathy re private parents not being able to afford private secondary,the vast majority can't.If you want to send your kids to grammar that badly send them to a state primary like everybody else who can't afford the primary or secondary fees.

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