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To think teachers are actually better off than those in the private sector

(489 Posts)
coco44 Mon 30-Sep-13 19:53:33

(Mumsnet Bosses
Please may I rephrase the debate in a more measured way)

soverylucky Fri 04-Oct-13 19:45:40

Teachers are accountable. First we have the Ofsted reports that any person can access and read about the performance in that school. Then there are exam results and league tables. On an individual basis most schools will send home reports/level statements regularly. Parents can easily see whether their children are making progress with a particular teacher or not. This can be compared to national averages. An individual teacher will also have their results scrutinised by their line manager or head. Most PM targets will involve lesson observation and the vast majority of schools also have their own internal inspection system in place.

ilovesooty Fri 04-Oct-13 19:50:14

Previously it was impossible

No it wasn't.

And not all the teachers being forced out were bad teachers.

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 19:52:07

I am interested now. How many teachers over say the last 20 years were fired because they werent up to the job?

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:52:28

Not if you're not given those levels,aren't told what good progress should be,aren't given info and have a weak head.

soverylucky Fri 04-Oct-13 19:54:27

Any parent can contact a school and ask for that information. If the school failed to provide it I would wonder what my children were doing at such a school and would search for an alternative.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:54:35

We've just visited a school where a head has just got rid of half a department after years of trying.

That is years of kids being let down.

Retropear Fri 04-Oct-13 19:58:48

Sovery well as many schools are graded Outstanding or Good one would kind of presume the progress and teaching would be.

It is very hard and not very pleasant to get info out of a school if they don't want to give it.

And as for moving kids that isn't easy either.hmm

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 19:59:15

Is this figure correct?
'17 duff teachers axed in 10 years '

I dont mean for example teachers that have been fired for say dating their pupils or for fighting. I had a collegue who hit one of our customers (who was a horrible, bullying bastard) and he was fired immediately even though the guy had pushed him just too far

handcream Fri 04-Oct-13 20:00:58

That's the worrying thing. It is difficult to fire a bad teacher. It shouldnt be but is. No wonder they want to keep their T&C's!

ilovesooty Fri 04-Oct-13 20:06:42

Those are only the ones struck off by the GTC. Of course the real number of teachers leaving due to competency proceedings is higher than that.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 04-Oct-13 20:24:35

"niceguy2*

"So tell me how a pension can be deemed 'affordable' when it's relying on massive contributions from an entity that has no money?"
when you tie the above ^^ with
"(Let's ignore the fact that teacher's salary is also government money for now.)"
it actually means that the government is spending money that is from the teachers pension fund. So I for one will not "ignore the fact"

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 04-Oct-13 20:33:40

handcream
"That's the worrying thing. It is difficult to fire a bad teacher."

Its no more difficult than in the "real world". In order to fire anyone you have to make a case to do so and as with all jobs you have to prove that you have tried everything within reason to improve that persons skills or they will sue the company for wrongful dismissal.

(unless its gross misconduct but you still have to prove that they have done it)

chicaguapa Fri 04-Oct-13 20:51:04

So when all these bad teachers have been easily sacked, where are the new teachers coming from? Seeing as the profession has such a bad image and poor attrition?

Certainly the ones coming in wringing their hands with anticipation at the short days and long holidays aren't going to stick it out for long. Agreed get rid of the dead wood and the water treaders, but you then need to make it an attractive profession to attract the good teachers in and keep them.

Is it not the responsibility of the people in charge of state education to do that too?

echt Fri 04-Oct-13 21:26:22

Hard to see why handcream is going on about it being difficult to sack a bad teacher when it is, as of 1st September, far easier. As ilovesooty pointed out.

I've seen teachers get the chop, it's a very detailed procedure, and so it should be; the same procedures protects someone who is being picked on. I've also seen incompetent management who mishandled capability, then whinged when the unions came in to support a teacher who had been treated unjustly. This then becomes "unions supporting crap teachers" instead of "unions supporting just and legal treatment of union members".

It boils my piss when I see managers who won't manage people. It IS hard, but that's what they're paid to do. Well, part of it.

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