...to think all dog owners should have them castrated/spayed (unless if they are for breeding)?

(200 Posts)
LizziePizzie Mon 19-Aug-13 10:05:06

I might be completely out of touch with this, but I thought that part of being a responsible dog owner was that was unless you have a stud dog, you get them castrated/spayed.

Is it cruel to have an entire dog/bitch, keeping them on the lead, or away from other dogs in case they get laid?

Is it cruel to have them castrated/spayed?

Is it just the responsibility of owners of bitches to get them spayed, or both owners of dogs and bitches?

tabulahrasa Thu 22-Aug-13 08:33:18

http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/estrus-cycles-in-dogs/5778

Although they can technically get pregnant any time during a season, they tend to be fertile and will stand for males about 2 weeks after the start of a season.

At 4 months and being a large breed - she's not likely to go into season for the first time for a few months yet, 6 months is about the earliest and larger dogs start later.

There are various ages put forward as the best time to spay, but if an entire dog has access to your garden - I'd get her spayed at 6 months, before she goes into season.

tabulahrasa Thu 22-Aug-13 08:33:34
LtEveDallas Thu 22-Aug-13 08:52:13

You don't need to wait until her first season Braw. You can have her spayed on the dot of 6 months. Tell your vet that you have an entire male next door, and vet shouldn't have a problem doing it.

Male dog wont be watching and waiting, but he will be ready as soon as yours is.

Pompoko Thu 22-Aug-13 09:10:52

It is cruel not to spay or neuter pets. Think how it must feal to get sexual desires and never being able to act on them. People have said how their dogs turn into pole dancers, sluts, gagging for it ect all of these behaviours show that they are desperate for sex, not puppies, sex.

Greyhorses Thu 22-Aug-13 09:28:55

Agreed, I work in a vets. I see thousands of unwanted dogs a year PTS, dogs who are untrained, have bitten, have health problems due to inbreeding etc etc. I wish everyone neutered. If only these so called breeders could see where these pups end up!

The only exception I would agree with is with nervous aggressive males, as castration can worsen the issue or dogs who are proven ie. have been shown/health tested/hip scored/elbow scored and genetically tested for any diseases.

To the posters breeding unwanted litters... If you can't afford to Spey how can you afford emergency medical treatment, ceasers typically run into the thousands, and then the costs of vaccinating/worming/rearing puppies. I work closely with breeders who typically spend a thousand raising the puppies before selling. Surely a spay is cheaper?

Morloth Thu 22-Aug-13 09:37:27

They are not going to do anything like that Greyhorses, they will probably just let them have the puppies/kittens at home and tough shit if the mum/babies die.

Because they don't really care that much.

midori1999 Thu 22-Aug-13 09:39:52

Pompoko I disagree that it's cruel not to neuter pets if you're going to look after them in a responsible manner and not allow accidental pregnancies.

I can assure you that my bitches have never been 'desperate for sex' either. So much so that our last planned mating didn't even result in a successful mating, let alone a litter, at considerable financial cost to ourselves. Not least as we decided that as our bitch was 6 we wouldn't wait until her next season to try again and she was neutered instead. Still, if you breed responsibly, that's one of the risks you take.

curlew Thu 22-Aug-13 09:52:46

Always assuming you accept that "responsible" and "breeding" are ever words that can go together.......

LtEveDallas Thu 22-Aug-13 10:05:13

Agreed Greyhorses. I have a friend who had a Rottie. He decided that he couldn't afford to spay her and in any case he wanted one litter from her, so didn't spay her. She was a lovely, lovely dog.

He lived near farmland. Farmers entire Collie escaped and caught her during her first season. Friend decided to let her have the litter. He told me he'd be able to get "about £400 quid per puppy". He also thought that he'd still be able to breed mate her and get around £650 for every rottie pup.

She had 4 pups. The second got stuck. Emergency call out and emergency CSect. 3 pups survived. Less than a week later Rottie needed emergency surgery and had her womb removed. About a month (and lots of treatment later) Rottie was dead sad. An infection had set in and the dog just wasn't strong enough to fight it, no matter what the vet did.

The pups had to be hand reared whilst all this was going on. Can you imagine the hours that friend and his gf put in?

In the end they were able to sell the 3 pups, but I know they got less than £1000 for the three. The vets bills came to something like £4k in the end.

So my friend lost a beautiful dog, and paid over £3K for the privilage.

midori1999 Thu 22-Aug-13 10:25:38

I do actually curlew and there's a huge world of difference between responsible, ethical breeders and fuckwits who breed dogs to make money, by accident or because they think it will be 'nice for the children'.

Mrs Have you seen the point I made I was 5 to 8 years old?

I can't see how that's my responsibility.

One of the cats it was recommended not to do, as she was very aggressive indeed.

By the way I commented and not being rude but I wasn't asking if anyone agreed with me.

Oh and if I had any cats, I'd neuter them myself and just buy a kitten separately if I wanted a kitten but that's just me as a 23 year old adult now.

Same with a dog.

Because it's generally better for them and it stops them from acting crazy in season.

When I say myself I mean take them to a vet and do it by the way, I am not a qualified neuterer.

Greyhorses Thu 22-Aug-13 10:47:38

Maybe loosing a bitch and having to raise a litter would teach some of these people a lesson. It's hugely risky to allow a bitch to have pups.

Night feeds every few hours x number of puppies x cleaning and toileting then starting again once number one is done for 8 weeks is NOT fun!!
Kittens are even less fun.

I speak from experience on this one!!
Then again, we as vets and vet nurses repeat ourselves over and over yet it falls on deaf ears so we just continue to pick up the pieces when it goes wrong!!

TakingTheStairs Thu 22-Aug-13 12:42:14

Can I just hop in here for a second in defence of Curlew

Specifically to Burmobasher and Thegirlwiththefeathertattoo

She didn't say that all dogs that had to be kept on a leash outside should be PTS. She did say (in reference to my dog) that she thought he would be better PTS than be on a short 18" lead and muzzled all of the time because of his risk of biting. She said this because she thought my dog never had any freedom to run around or even be on a "normal" leash. When I explained that she had picked up the information incorrectly and he was only only a short leash and muzzled in certain circumstances, she apologised.
Others that had realised that my dog was only on a short leash occassionally, thought she had realised the same thing, and that's where the misunderstanding about thinking she meant all dogs on leashes
came from. (I think I'm correct in that Curlew?)

It's not fair to debate against someone when the information you have about what they said is inaccurate.

Thanks, and back to the conversation!!

curlew Thu 22-Aug-13 13:21:25

Thank you Taking The Stairs- that's very generous of you. And yes, that is what happened.

TakingTheStairs Thu 22-Aug-13 13:21:54

<whispers> I think I just killed the thread blush

Bowlersarm Thu 22-Aug-13 13:24:37

I wouldn't say you've killed it TakingTheStairs I think it's run it's course.

Nice sort of thread really. Most people agree, but a bit of arguing and argey-bargey in the middle. Perfect!

TakingTheStairs Thu 22-Aug-13 13:26:59

Oh I didn't kill it, phew- Crossed posts with Curlew! And you're welcome.

I have no issues with a healthy debate, especially when it's an issue that is so close to all of us, but to be picked at for something that you didn't actually say is unfair.

TakingTheStairs Thu 22-Aug-13 13:27:24

thanks Bowlersarm [Grin]

AdoraBell Thu 22-Aug-13 14:26:02

I can't see how dogs would be gagging for sex as such, I mean most species use sex simply for reproduction so what they are keen on doing is following their instinct to produce off spring. I think this 'gagging for sex' concept is only really applicable to some humans as we are the species that has worked out how to have sex without producing offspring and made it about the sex rather than survival of the species.

tabulahrasa Thu 22-Aug-13 14:39:11

My dog can't work out why there's another dog in the mirror, I'm very doubtful that he's thought through the implications of why he finds some bitches intriguing sometimes...it's about the act then surely? The urges are to do with the act, not actual reproduction.

So while, no it's not in a human way - I'm pretty sure it is just about the sex.

hickerybobp Thu 22-Aug-13 14:44:06

I worked in rescue etc and a lot of healthy cats and dogs are PTS every year just because there is no room for them and no money to pay to have them properly retrained after somebody taken on a dog and not been able to give it the time and training required. You see a lot of status dogs as well, people don't want them when they realise they are soft and friendly... and they are harder to rehome because of the bad image they are given (despite the fact they would be wonderful family pets) sad

I don't have my dog spayed though and she is not for breeding. The reason is because of her breed, she carries a rare disorder called MDR1, meaning the anesthetic would kill her (it happens with other chemicals and veterinary products too). We found out about her reactions after she was injured as a puppy and had to have her leg cast (it was broken) under heavy sedation and pain medication as the operation would have been fatal if the vet used anesthetic. She is now 10 and has never had a litter!

Burmobasher Thu 22-Aug-13 15:44:49

Curlew Add message | Report | Message poster curlew Wed 21-Aug-13 12:35:13
"Oh don't be stupid. Of course dogs and other animals are important- they are just not equal members of the household. And yes, if a dog could never be let off a lead I do think it should be put down- that's no life for a dog."

Takingthestairs -
This is the post that I was responding to. I think it's understandable that it was misinterpreted but if that's the case and Curlew doesn't believe that dogs who can't be let off lead on walks should be killed then I apologise.
I think we both agree on the subject of neutering. It's tragic that people are spending hundreds on "designer dogs" mongrels when there are puppies in kennels who haven't had the best start in life and desperately need a new home.

BrawToken Thu 22-Aug-13 17:50:42

Thank you for the advice upthread! I should add, my garden is fenced, just that a determined dog could get through it as it is a fence with wide bars and thick high shrubbery. I have a suspicion if the next door dog (or indeed any dog) smelt my bitch on heat, it would find a way! Perhaps 'watching and waiting' was a bit paranoid lol.

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