to want to ask those who intend to vote UKIP a few questions about their policies?

(189 Posts)
PdHeatonsingingfafafa Sun 28-Jul-13 08:28:11

Let me ask you this. Has anybody here actually looked at UKIP policies? If so, perhaps you can answer some questions for me.
1: UKIP say they want an amicable divorce from the EU. How smoothly do they believe that can happen?
2. UKIP want a 5 year hold on immigration. To do so, they think that it is essential to leave the EU as the EU allows citizens of member states to move freely. Ok, what happens to the 2.2 million Brits living in other EU nations? Do we force them to return? It has to work both ways. 3: A flat tax rate can never work. I imagine this is why the party cannot decide whether or not they should have 1 rate or 2. Their 2010 proposal was a rate of 31% for everybody. That is evidently a major tax break for the rich whilst the poor pay more. Is this something you support?
4: A return to the grammar school education model would see communities being ripped in half and children unfairly separated. Who here thinks that is a good idea?
5: UKIP want to increase defence spending to facilitate the building of extra warships and nuclear weapons. When a member or supporter asks why soldiers aren't paid more, be sure to also ask why they'd squander money on these projects?
6: UKIP oppose the HS2 because of the damage it would do to the countryside. However, they also support fracking which would cause even greater damage. How can there be such contradiction? They also oppose manmade climate change. On what evidence do they take this stance?
7: UKIP plan to double prison spaces. How do they propose to fund the building of new prisons and of keeping twice as many inmates? Who will take up these extra spaces? What crimes will become punishable by incarceration? Who will suffer from cuts made elsewhere to fund this?
8: UKIP is proposing "tens of billions" of tax cuts and had set out £77bn of cuts to public expenditure to deal with the deficit. Where will these cuts be made? After increased military and prison spending, the cuts in public spending will have to be a lot higher to compensate.
9: They wish to repeal the hunting ban. This appeals to a minority of people whereas the majority of the country supports the hunting ban. Can you guess which section of society would benefit from the repeal?

It seems to me that most of these policies were plucked from thin air to try and hide the fact that they are a one policy party. Perhaps, by answering these questions, you can change my mind?

flatpackhamster Sun 28-Jul-13 09:34:19

PdHeatonsingingfafafa

Hi flatpackhamster. It was indeed posted on Facebook too. I wondered if their actual followers could answer my questions.

I have to wonder why you didn't contact UKIP direct with your questions.

^ Whilst I agree that Mumsnet is hardly a breeding ground of UKIP support, it may surprise you just how far its tentacles are spreading.^

It doesn't. UKIP speaks to a section of the population which is despised and ignored by the mainstream political parties.

My question is clearly aimed at those who do intend to vote for them, or even those who are becoming swayed by them. It's also nothing to do with my right on credentials.

I see. So you're attempting to snuff out support for UKIP on Mumsnet by asking several questions which make no sense? 1 is a fair question and there's a good answer to it, but I'm not sure you really want the answer. 2 is based upon a misunderstanding of how the EU works. 3 is based upon a misunderstanding of how tax works. 4 is based upon an ignorance of the grammar school system. 5 is a logical fallacy - it's perfectly possible to increase the salaries of soldiers and to spend a decent amount on defence. 6 shows an ignorance of UKIP's stance on HS2. 7 is just a wierd question - who do you think the extra prison places would be used for? Convicted criminals, perhaps? 8, yes, spending has to be cut, and there are plenty of places that could be done. 9, well, we roll out policies which benefit tiny minorities of the population every month and nobody whinges about that so it's hardly a valid objection to the repealing of the hunting ban.

Every day, hatred towards people who happened to be born elsewhere but live and work here is becoming more intense and parties like UKIP are stirring the hatred up. I'll bet you that there are some people here who are definitely considering voting for them.

There are some, but mostly it's Labour and Lib-Dem voters here. UKIP's primary voting demographic is C2, D and E voters and Mumsnet is crammed to the gills with Islington socialists who work in media fighting the good fight from their million-pound houses.

Tweasels Sun 28-Jul-13 09:35:07

<sigh>

There won't be many UKIP voters here hopefully

Aside from the right wing hamster who always crawls out of it's burrow to slag off the left, you're probably in the wrong place.

lljkk Sun 28-Jul-13 09:36:02

You forgot about energy & climate change; isn't happening or isn't man-made or doesn't matter (according to UKIP). UKIP would like to reopen the coal mines, drop all commitments to reduce GHGs and strongly endorse nuclear power and fracking. You know they would do things like drop subsidies for public transport, too.

Locally UKIP spearhead all the anti-onshore wind turbine campaigns (can't get one built for love or money in this area).

So vote UKIP if you support Fracking and a ban on onshore wind energy everywhere.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 09:36:24

Friends from formative years meaning old school friends?
Erm.. Me... grin
But them again I live in the type of place where all the old school friends have children who are now in the same classes in school!

delboysfilofax puts it best I think... Most party manifestos are indeed full of shit...

Tweasels Sun 28-Jul-13 09:40:39

I also have friends from way back when. The 3 friends I am closest to went to nursery with me, then primary and high school (no fancy grammars where I lived)

Strange thing to say Sour.

Tweasels Sun 28-Jul-13 09:41:39

"Mumsnet is crammed to the gills with Islington socialists who work in media fighting the good fight from their million-pound houses."

Ha ha ha ha, if only.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 09:43:42

Don't kid yourself about UKIP. this is a revolution. The people have spoken in the local elections and they have had enough. Ordinary people are saying that they have had enough of undemocratic privileged elites who ignore their wishes and of some elites who treat their own constituency members and ordinary people as 'swivel-eyed loons'.

1: UKIP say they want an amicable divorce from the EU. How smoothly do they believe that can happen?

Smoothly, because the EU export lots of goods to us and will negotiate a friendly split in order to maintain harmonious relations.

2. UKIP want a 5 year hold on immigration. To do so, they think that it is essential to leave the EU as the EU allows citizens of member states to move freely. Ok, what happens to the 2.2 million Brits living in other EU nations? Do we force them to return? It has to work both ways.

We don't force British citizens to do anything. They are free to live wherever they want as long as other countries allow it. It is not for us to tell other countries what to do with British expats living there.

3: A flat tax rate can never work. I imagine this is why the party cannot decide whether or not they should have 1 rate or 2. Their 2010 proposal was a rate of 31% for everybody. That is evidently a major tax break for the rich whilst the poor pay more. Is this something you support?

Yes, I support it, as well as taking minimum wage earners out of taxation completely. UKIP will save billions of taxpayer money tat is wasted by the metropolitan eite on their unrepresentative pet projects and spend the money wisely according to the wishes of the majority. That is why they will be able to allow more people to keep the pound in their pocket and spend it to create real employment through stimulating business rather than to fritter it away on the unrepresntative pet projects of the privileged metroplitan elite.

4: A return to the grammar school education model would see communities being ripped in half and children unfairly separated. Who here thinks that is a good idea?

I support it because it would allow clever children from unprivileged backgrounds to compete with some of teh privileged dunces in private schools. It would take us back to the social mobility where Thatcher became Prime Minister and where Eton and St Paul's and Westminster etc are no longer overrepresented among our privilegd metropolitan elite.

5. 5: UKIP want to increase defence spending to facilitate the building of extra warships and nuclear weapons. When a member or supporter asks why soldiers aren't paid more, be sure to also ask why they'd squander money on these projects?

Don't agree with all of this, but if they build teh ships in our own shipyards then it will boost employment here and so is a win-win.

6. UKIP oppose the HS2 because of the damage it would do to the countryside. However, they also support fracking which would cause even greater damage. How can there be such contradiction? They also oppose manmade climate change. On what evidence do they take this stance?

I am against HS2 too, as it seems to be a waste of money to me. Fracking, I am not yet sure about and have an open mind towards. We need to do more studies on how it affects the environment, but what I felt was significant was that the greens' major objections, or the ones that I saw on TV, were mainly about the carbon footprint and all that guff instead of health risks, so we will have to see how much health is really at risk.

The fact that they oppose teh phony elitist agenda of "manmade climate change2 and its objective to limit our growth and charge us extar for our energy, is another sign that UKIP are with the people and not with the think tanks and the elitist planners and the privileged public school progressives who are often in the pockets of the wealthy privileged elites.

7: UKIP plan to double prison spaces. How do they propose to fund the building of new prisons and of keeping twice as many inmates? Who will take up these extra spaces? What crimes will become punishable by incarceration? Who will suffer from cuts made elsewhere to fund this?

They will fund prison building by not wasting taxpayer money on the pet projects of the privileged elite - there will be a reduction in community climate change coordinators and street football corrodinators wearing baseball caps around the wrong way.

What crimes will become punishable by incarceration?
Thinks like violent crime and assault where people are let out too soon or where they sometimes receive only community service now.

"Who will suffer from cuts made elsewhere to fund this?"

The progressive privileged elite will suffer because there will be no more golden goodbyes for the boys as all their committees and quangos and officials will be cut back. their duck houses, their gold-plated pensions and their tens of thousands of goodbyes when their contracts finish will come to an end. the public will no longer foot the bill for their progressive privileged profligacy, the people will insist on full transparency and the billions saved from the progressive pot will be spent on the needs of ordinary people.

8: UKIP is proposing "tens of billions" of tax cuts and had set out £77bn of cuts to public expenditure to deal with the deficit. Where will these cuts be made? After increased military and prison spending, the cuts in public spending will have to be a lot higher to compensate.

UKIP say they wil save £50 billion from the bonfire of the quangos which will not please the privileged progressives and think tanks but will bring joy to the people. They say they will save £10 billion on foreign aid. Building prisons and ships will boost growth and provide employment and so the costs will be recovered. Locking up more criminals, and possibly some bankers too, will save the economy and the people money, as an end to daylight robbery will ensue.

9: They wish to repeal the hunting ban. This appeals to a minority of people whereas the majority of the country supports the hunting ban. Can you guess which section of society would benefit from the repeal?

The people who like to hunt. It's not something high on my agenda, but UKIP are basically conservative and believe in freedom and maintaining the country's traditions, so this is possibly where this comes from.

Be under no illusion, the rise of UKIP is a revolution, it is the rise of the people against the privileged progressives who have conned us for so long. People said change would never come, they said we couldn't expose the lies, but UKIP is a demonstration that "Yes we can".

UKIp has dared to oppose their 'manmade climate change fraud' backed by all of their paid-for media, and that is only the beginning of what they will change.

Change is coming, the people are rising and the elite is declining.

delboysfileofax Sun 28-Jul-13 09:46:39

Tweasels, would you not agree that there are a lot of mumsnetters who do have a vested interest in the welfare state as either recipients of benefits or employed in that field?

Souredstoneshasasouredpebble Sun 28-Jul-13 09:46:44

My post was in response to the OP

I don't know anyone who is still friends with people from primary school

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 10:24:26

Change is coming OP.

The question I ask you is, have you heard the people, are you with the people and for the people or are you with the progressives, their think tanks and the privileged metropolitan elite?

Are you with the tide, are you riding the wave, are you surfing to shore with the people or are you like the chief of the progressives, King Cannot, on his throne, on the beach, commanding the people to get back in their box and pay their taxes to keep the progressives (with their duck houses) in the style they have become accustomed to?

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 10:29:22

claig it's a revolution right up to polling day when people fall back to what they know and who they think will look after their own bank balances. It's a bit idealistic to think that a huge social change will happen just because people are pissed off with certain policies of the present government. People are always pissed of with whoever is in charge, the majority won't upset the applecart too much in case it impacts badly on them.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 10:39:36

Flob, you may well be right, it really depends on how bad it gets over the next two years. At the moment, the Tories are pulling it round again and they are doing well. They have some good people. Osborne is good, Hunt is absolutely excellent and Hammond is good. It looks like the economy may recover and therefore the people's anger will subside and they may not demand change yet.

But the clever Tories should listen to the message that the people gave. They wil not accept more of the same old same old by an elite divorced from the public and eating pasties to pretend they are in it with us and for us.

The progressives pushed for an enquiry on hacking, particularly by right wing popular newspapers, but there seems to be little will to uncover the hacking by private detectives by some of our leading companies, law forms and individuals.

The people understand the game - jobs for the boys, bonuses for the boys and bankers, favours for the chums and quangos for the progressives - and the people are becoming disillusioned.

Faith was vanished, cynicism prevails and lies have been exposed. It's only a matter of time before the people say enough is enough and vote the corruption out.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 10:49:15

But is it not a case of 'meet the new boss same as the old boss'? Jobs for the boys and the old boys club networks aren't the preserve of the Tories, it's just more noticeable. Same as the private school educated MP's argument could be used for most if not all political parties.
You're right that people are fed up but the whole problem is that politicians in general from whatever party generate no respect whatsoever now and the few decent MP's (including our local one, who is a damn sight better than most) are tarred by the same brush.
Before the last election Nick Clegg really pushed for people to see the Libdems as an alternative to this type of government, in the same way that Farage is trying to do with UKIP. Look beneath the surface - and you don't have to look to deeply- they are the same. Beholden to somebody richer than they are, making promises they can't/have no intentions of keeping because they know they don't stand a hope in hell of getting in. And when, like the Libdems they do gain some power the backtracking starts so fast it leaves skidmarks.
I don't know what the answer is, UKIP isn't though in my opinion. It's not realistic.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 10:52:55

"People are always pissed of with whoever is in charge, the majority won't upset the applecart too much in case it impacts badly on them."

I voted UKIP in the local elections, and I did so apprehensively, because I didn't know if I would be alone and if by voting UKIP I met let some of the flint-faced former communists and progressives into power in my area. i worried that it might backfire on me and let the socialists sneak in and put up council taxes and impose bin fines for not closing bin lids and let them put more of their chums in public positions paid for by the working people.

But, even with all of that, I still took the risk of voting UKIP and letting some of the flint-faced former communists in. But as it turned out, I was not alone, and the majority of people in my area also happened to vote UKIP.

We were only a fraction of the real public and are only a fraction of what the public really feel. Some Tory councillors have left the Tory party and joined UKIP. Some voters may never switch back to the Tories.

The train has left the station and UKIP are in the driving seat and thousands of ordinary people are jumping on board. The progressives are pissed, their lies have been exposed, they don't know where it will end.

It's gonna be a rollercoaster ride, you'll need to put your seatbelt on, because change is coming and the progressives don't like it.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 11:04:48

'they are the same. Beholden to somebody richer than they are, making promises they can't/have no intentions of keeping'

I think you are probably right. But the public know that. they know about the lobbies, the 'cabs for hire' and the puppets strung along by the real elite behind the curtain.

But the public know that that is how it is and they will turn a blind eye as long as the puppert masters listen to the public and give them most of what they want.

The party who actually listens to the public and gives them what they want will win. I don't mean a patronising New Labour 'Big Conversation' or a patronising Tory 'Big Society', I mean really listening to ordinary people.

The privileged have become divorced from the people. Len McCluskey was right when he said that working people have not got much chance of becoming Labour MPs. That seems to be for the parachuted puppets from public schools and Oxbridge with their PPEs.

The divorce from the people means they can no longer understand the people when they hold their 'Big Conversations' with the little people and sometimes they are so out of touch that they may even call their own lifelong voters bigots. That's how big the divide has become.

But now there is a party called UKIP full of ordinary people, warts and all. No spinners, no pagers, no liars, just ordinary people, warts and all. And that is why ordinary people got off their backsides and decided to vote for them, because they are sick of being ignored.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 11:26:21

Not only are UKIP against the 'manmade climate change' fraud, but it seems they are not the elite's puppets where GM food is concerned either. This is from one of their documents

"GM Foods

UKIP is opposed to the production of GM crops in Britain, but open to scientific research, advice and consumer demand. UKIP would require all imported GM produce to be labelled to indicate the presence of GM."

If the BBC allows this to reach the public, then UKIP might sweep into power, because what the public really think and what we are told that the public think are miles apart.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 11:26:34

The warts are what are putting many people off. What some may call an unvarnished truth others call offensive.
UKIP are targetting our area, have been for a while, as are the BNP as we are one of the most deprived constituencies in the country and have a large immigrant population. And yet they get nowhere. In 2010 UKIP came 5th behind the NF (which is scary in itself) and the BNP came 6th. The difference in voting % spoke volumes about how both are viewed. Even witha low turnout - just above 50% - the 3 main parties wiped the floor with everyone else. A vote for a party other than the 3 big ones is seen as either a waste or a protest vote right now. If an election was called tomorrow I honestly couldn't see there being much difference on Tuesday.
I just don't see it changing. I find many of UKIP's policies unpalatable and the parts that I could swallow will never happen (am more of the Green persuasion personally), and I know for a fact that I'm not the only one.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 11:44:49

Flob, that was in 2010, but we have undergone a revolution since. Our voting system will eventually have to change because it does not represent the will of the people.

First past the post is a farce and votes really only count in a few marginal constituencies. This benefits the privileged elites and the status quo but stifles democracy and the will of the people. It may take decades to get a proportional voting system but it will eventually have to come because the current system is becoming discredited as it does not represent the true will of the people.

The elites and their media will try their best to discredit UKIP because they are a movement of the people and not the progressives and elites. UKIP members are not on any think tanks, they are not sponsored by the elites. Even the good old Daily Mail started running stories about UKIP candidates one week before the local elections. Everything will be tried to stop them. Paid for protestors will be paid to disrupt Farage's speeches and shout "go home" and "scum" etc, but all of the elite's tricks will fail because, just like the progressives, they do not understand the people and have become divorced from them.

If Farage manages to get on the leader's debate, then he will make mincemeat of the puppets reading from autocues. Will the elite allow him on that debate. They'll try their damndest not to, but it may already be too late. Change is coming, it may be late, but the people will wait.

LondonMan Sun 28-Jul-13 11:48:24

Their 2010 proposal was a rate of 31% for everybody

In 2005, for my own interest, I did the calculations for what rate a flat tax would have to be set at, assuming no change in overall government spending (such changes being a separate issue) and assuming in the pursuit of simplification that National Insurance was abolished, so there was only one income tax instead of two. Depending on how big you made the personal allowance, the flat tax would have to be in the range 40% to 50%.

I am for a flat tax, but my fellow proponents who come out with lower rates are usually doing so (if they've done the calculations at all) on the basis of assuming some cut in government spending and/or some increase in economic activity that would result. I think both of those assumptions are cheating.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 11:55:15

Oh I agree that things have changed, and that the voting system needs to and will change at some point, thats beyond doubt. I think my toddler daughter may see the change come into affect there though!
It would be a good idea to get Farage into the leadership debates, I believe that the leaders of all parties standing for election should get a mainstream chance to air their views, it would give people a chance to listen properly and not just get their voting perspective from biased media coverage, as long as the questions come from real voters not paid stooges.
Have totally hijacked the thread, sorry Op blush it's an interesting subject to discuss though.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 11:57:34

Billions and billions of public taxpayer money is wasted every year. Our supposed 'regulators' sometimes seem to be asleep on the job. Why?
Are we back to lobbies yet again?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2345639/Drug-firms-chemists-colluding-overcharge-NHS-millions-pounds-unregulated-drugs.html

£100 million wasted on a scrapped BBC IT project for a database. Anyone lost their job?

The public is being taken for a ride and it will have to come to an end. The progressive party is over, they'll have to put away their silly hats, we need more than 'light touch regulation', we need an end to publicly funded fat cats.

Cut the taxes of struggling working people, previously fined by progressives for not closing their bin lids or daring to put their bins out on the wrong day, and end taxpayer subsidies to rich landowners for erecting inefficient windmills.

The progressives won't like it, but the people will love it.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 12:19:22

It won't happen in one election claig no matter how disillusioned the electorate are. It's been the way of politics for too long to change overnight, or even in a couple of years.
Change will happen, it has to. Whether it's UKIP, although I believe they will have to adapt and change to be accepted fully, a different party or a total and complete change in the political system I really don't know. However imo a change in politics has to be accompanied by a change in the national way of life. My own belief (and laugh if you want, others do) is that we need to become more self sufficient and exist in smaller communities working with each other to make the changes we need.

SilverOldie Sun 28-Jul-13 12:25:47

I am a Tory voter (rare as hen's teeth on here I know).

I support the UKIP on leaving the EU - Cameron keeps promising a referendum some time never. If the UKIP continue to gain support he may be forced to bring that forward.

Grammar schools are great and should be re-introduced to the areas where there are none. Bloody Shirley Williams.

I don't know enough about tax to know if a flat rate would work or not.

I support a 5 year hold on immigration. This is a small island and the needs of people already here are many.

Don't know about fracking so can't comment.

Our prisons are currently overcrowded, so see no problem with building new ones which will also provide jobs.

If they want to do away with all the bloated quangos, more power to them.

I oppose fox hunting, its cruel and unnecessary.

So, it sounds like I'm a UKIP supporter, I will have a real dilemma come election time, whether to vote UKIP or Tory.

claig Sun 28-Jul-13 12:28:26

Flob, you are right, we do need to become more self-sufficient, which means we must become more independent and less dependent. That is part of what UKIP is also all about - it is an Independence party that wants to reclaim national sovereignty in order to control our own laws and not be beholden to unelected bureaucrats or multinational conglomerates who may wish to impose GM food or anything else on us that the people are against.

We must be self-sufficient and we must be independent - independent of lobbyists and fat cats and dependent on the will of the people for the benefit of the people. That's why we need more ordinary people in politics in order to stand up for teh rights of the ordinary people. We need fewer of the elites who are often in the pockets of the plutocrats. We have too many of the 'right sort' holding the levers of power and it seems that they tend to do right to the plutocrats and not the people far too often.

Flobbadobs Sun 28-Jul-13 12:38:48

All very true claig. If UKIP want to be taken seriously by the majority as the party of real intelligent change though they need to listen properly to the electorate (and upcoming electorate) about how they are perceived. The focus, rightly or wrongly is always on their policies surrounding immigration when like all parties that is a small aspect of the manifesto. This why Nigel Farage or whoever is leader needs to be included in the debates next time round. Very few will read the manifesto and absorb the details. I'm nearly 40 and to my shame only really took an interest in politics in the last few years. My information was taken from the daft leaflets and newspaper coverage without delving deeper. Most are like me, skimming the surface rather than actually looking. This is why politics should be taught from a fairly early age in schools, to raise politically intelligent future voters.
I will be in the same dilemma as silveroldie come election time, last time I voted for and indie candidate who lost his deposit and we ended up with Labour. It kills me to say it but he's rather good...
God only knows who I will vote for.

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