To think that no child should be allowed to ruin the learning of 29 children

(378 Posts)
ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 09:35:05

My son's year 6 class has been constantly distruped by one or two children. It is unfair that 28 children cannot learn because of the behaviour of one or two.

I feel it really doesn't matter what the reason is for a child who constantly misbehaves (before someone gets out the flame thrower/ violin) the other children have a right to learn in a calm ordered environment. Often badly children do not have learning difficulties or difficult family circumstances.

Or put it another way some children with special needs or a difficult home life have explematory behaviour.

It is not fair that many hard working children have to put up with child X making stupid noises (NOT TOURETTES or any other special need) or constantly shouting out or arguing with the teacher because their parents can't afford private school.

It would be interesting to know what other countries do with children who constantly distrupt the class. (Other than using the cane.)

I believe that Britain's in ablity to deal with low level disruption in the classroom has reduced social mobility.

Well it shouldn't LIZS. Lobby the Head to make sure it doesn't continue to do so. Highlight Behaviour in Parent consultations. Get it brought up at Well being Gov meetings (or equivalent).

Sparhawk Wed 08-May-13 10:36:27

LIZS they do well academically? Clearly that means they don't have a SEN then. hmm

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:38:53

From a different angle I think it's inevitable to have some disruption in a group of 28 children, just as you would in a group of 28 adults.

As long as the other children are safe and the school is making a concerted effort to handle any disruption, then I think it is actually part and parcel of learning.

We need our kids to learn how to deal with situations that may arise later in life and dealing with people of all ilk and behaviour is part of that.

Most offices have a 'joker' or 'gossiper' or 'grumpy moaner' and most often the rest of the office still has to get on with the work. If the person is creating a danger, or is being racist etc then the management usually will deal with it - as the school does/should.

I think social mobility may be more affected by the influence of inter generational educational attitudes and abilities for example areas where parents left school early to work and so have either less confidence in the value of education or less ability to help their children outside of school (or both)

Patchouli Wed 08-May-13 10:40:07

I just wish DD's teachers had a better strategy than to sit the disruptive ones next to the quiet ones.
She asked me the other day if she's going to be sat next to so-and-so for 6 years (this is the 3rd year).

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:40:08

Actually that should read all the children are safe

SacreBlue Wed 08-May-13 10:43:41

You could ask if they could come up with a better strategy patch? If you feel your dd is never getting a chance to work quietly.

I agree with peer learning but I don't think a child should be made to feel responsible for another's learning at the expense of their own.

LIZS Wed 08-May-13 10:44:00

No of course it shouldn't be overlooked but sometimes it seems easier and more pragmatic for school to turn a blind eye. hmm Did talk to deputy about it in year 5, classes shuffled around for Year 6 but setting meant dd still had lessons with some and behaviour continued. Yes I know SEN children can be bright (ds is one such) but that was not a factor here.

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 10:44:53

Lots of children with special needs do behave well. They should not have their learning distrupted anymore than an NT child.

Some distruptive children know perfectly well how to behave. Many of these children do behave well outside school. One of the children has been to our house on several occassions.

"Could it be down to the inability of the teacher to maintain order? What has been done so far?"

The teacher is failing to keep order. However the children are choosing to behave badly. (Ie. humming or coughing while she is speaking)

The children who misbehave are sent to another class. However that punishment is not working as they repeat their awful behavior the following day. I feel that log of bad behaviour should be kept and punishments should be escalated in severity. (Ultimately a child who chooses to persistantly hum should be made an example of permamently excluded.)

It would be lovely if we all had wonderful super teachers who never had discipline problems. However we have to make do with the best teachers we can find. Teaching is difficult job and we should not allow ill mannered brats to make their job harder.

Many children choose to behave badly. They should be made to regret that choice.

zzzzz Wed 08-May-13 10:45:16

Children who are disruptive are being mismanaged. There are avenues to obtain all the funding and training required to deal with the situation, so approach the head and ask why this is not being put in place.

You know those swanky new computers and the pretty playground stuff....well perhaps you need to think about how your school is spending it's money?

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:46:26

'perhaps it teaches you tolerance, empathy and understanding too'.

What if you re being relentlessly bullied by this person though, perhaps racially? Whatever the underlying reason surely this is not acceptable..

SamuelWestsMistress Wed 08-May-13 10:47:14

Sometimes children are just badly behaved. YANBU.

Yes, Patchouli. I had to ask that DS be moved after being continaully stabbed with a pencil/kicked under the desk. I pointed out that after a term it was unlikely that "Sitting on the Good table" was helping any. Although apparently the child had got quieter, so a result of sorts hmm

Before anyone says anything about hypocrisy etc, the child was only moved to the other side of the table, out of pencil-poking range.
Not particularly good classroom management, but the teacher has left now.

momb Wed 08-May-13 10:50:21

YANBU. In an ideal world all children will be provided with the type of learning environment that suits their learning type/needs best.

My YD was the child who sang and danced at the back during quiet carpet time...who asked a million questions a lesson throughout foundation stage....who refused to open a reading book throughout reception and year 1. She was very disruptive in school and spent half the reception year sitting outside the HT office. No SEN, no reason we could see why she just couldn't/wouldn't conform to the accepted behavioural standard in school. She had some sessions with the SEN teacher on being a good friend, thinking of others, social cues etc but finished after a term because it wasn't that she didn't know what was required (she managed perfectly well in social situations and home life), she just didn't do it. It was a very difficult time: at home she was fine, at school she was really disruptive (though not violent), and I guess that if we were the kind of family who used racist/sexist/bad language she would have repeated it all.
She turned everything around in Year 2: decided that she wanted to learn to read, caught up and passed her targets. We will never know whether any other children who were affected by her behaviour have caught up.
With hindsight, i should have taken her out of school until she wanted to formally learn, but of course that was never an option.

wonderful super teachers who never had discipline problems

Or ordinary teachers backed up by a Behaviour Management Policy that is applicable across the school, consistent and understood by all pupils and staff.

Startail Wed 08-May-13 10:50:30

YANBU
Every child deserves an education.

Sadly a lack of trained TAs, a lack of space and staff to with draw children and closure of special schools, no ed Phys and many other issues make this impossible.

The only provision for SNs withdrawal being a dark dusty corner of the cloakroom or a tiny cupboard is not good enough. One untrained TA trying to help a whole table of DCs with wildly different needs doesn't work. Often quiet children who need academic support get stuck with disruptive DCs who need watching.

I helped in one class where one girl got kicked continuously by a DC who just couldn't cope with mainstream school. I was a student I couldn't say anything. They needed another TA rather than trying to survive with one assigned to the hearing impaired unit who wasn't really supposed to help.

jellybeans Wed 08-May-13 10:51:12

I know a teacher who used to tell the bullied victims to try to 'make friends' (with the bully) to prevent them being bullied!

CheesyPoofs Wed 08-May-13 10:52:46

Bullying is different and absolutely should be unacceptable.

OP isn't talking about bullying though, she's talking about disruptive children in class.

I agree it sounds like a discipline problem.

There's disruptive people at my work by the way. I suppose schools are one way of teaching people how to cope with work in a big open plan office grin

Pigsmummy Wed 08-May-13 10:53:20

This isn't new is it, I am nearly 40 and remember the 1/2 disruptive children in class driving the poor teacher mad, right from primary to when I left school.

WilsonFrickett Wed 08-May-13 10:55:18

Seriously, you think a child should be excluded for humming?

You need to be speaking to your HT or whatever and getting this issue sorted out. This is very poor teaching indeed.

BeyonceCastle Wed 08-May-13 11:00:42

disrupted
badly behaved
exemplary
disrupt
inability

Throws flame. Slopes off to pedants' corner.

I live in a different country btw.
Even less provision or support for individual differences.
Kids who fail resit the whole year.
At secondary get one of three labels 1. uni material 2. office drone material 3. manual labour or dole and a 'further education' to go with the stereotype.

You could become a parent volunteer and offer to do some 1 on 1 with kids in the class.
You could get some private tuition for your kid and/or support them intensively at home in their learning.
You could ask to observe your own impeccably behaved cherub in class and clap at how awesome and angelic they are.

Or you can bitch on MN. Your choice.

FuckThisShit Wed 08-May-13 11:00:49

Gosh, you sound like a lovely person.

CheesyPoofs Wed 08-May-13 11:01:08

God I wish my colleague would be sacked for the tuneless hum she does all bloody day driving me to distraction

NB. I don't really but wish she would shut up!

GiraffesAndButterflies Wed 08-May-13 11:02:36

gringrin Fanjo for the flaming harikari
gringrin hazeyjane for coming up with that term!

<<misses point of thread>>

ReallyTired Wed 08-May-13 11:03:04

"Seriously, you think a child should be excluded for humming? "

It would be a totally failure to respond to normal discipline. The majority of secondary schools do have the ablity to permamently exclude for constant low level distruption, although such exclusions take a very long time to happen.

In secondary school situation.

Humming would restort in C1 (consequence level1) a telling off from the teacher

Three C1 in a lesson results in a detention (C2) and possibly removal from the classroom to internal isolation.

More than three detentions in a week results in a day internal isolation (C4)

More than certain numbers of C4s in a term results in suspension and a readmittance meeting (C5)

Ultimately a child who is constantly getting C5s should be moved to different provision. (Managed transfer/ permamently excluded)

In many secondary schools a child who persistantly hums could in theory be permamently excluded, but it doesn't happen in reality. Usually external help is sort long before that stage.

OhLori Wed 08-May-13 11:26:17

YANBU! My goodness, the violins are out!

FWIW, I went to primary school in the late 60s and early 70s. There were simply *no disruptive children*hmm shock confused. Whether that's because the teachers were better or the children were better behaved I have no idea.

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