To want to tell my DD that her 'friend' is no such thing....and not so politely...

[unlucky83]

DD is just 12, 'friend' is 13 and definitely more worldly wise. 'Friend' has older siblings whereas DD is eldest
They have know each other for just over 2 years - 'friend' joined DD at primary school. Know 'friends' parents a bit - they are quite strict and definitely are ambitious for their children.
I think 'friend' is a nasty manipulative b*tch...but maybe I'm over reacting
Soon after meeting they were best friends ...fell out a bit....had other best friends and now 'friend' is DD's bestest bestest friend again...
All this sounds like girls of that age...
but....
At Primary they chose two children with 'natural musical ability' for free piano lessons - DD was chosen. 'Friend' told her not to take up the lessons because she would be 'stuck' playing piano and couldn't take up a 'cooler' instrument later. DD (without me knowing until afterwards) turned the lessons down. 'Friend' was then offered them and took them up....(not sure if she would have known she next in line though...)
At secondary - DD won't sort her bag out after school, check her homework etc - carries all her books around with her every day...does her homework on the bus - apparently 'friend' (who knows everything because of her older siblings) doesn't do her bag...or bother doing her homework (which I know isn't true - her mum told me about helping her do an essay!)
They have to make choices now for next year - DD could just do one science -but I think that is a really bad idea and am insisting she does 2 (and then two 1 year less academic things) - 'friend' says you don't need more than one science unless you want to be a doctor or vet or something and she is just going to do four less academic subjects (I refuse to believe her parents will let her - in fact I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't doing 3 sciences and no 'easy' things)...
Final straw - they are going on an activity weekend (not with school) . 'Friend' needs a lift. She was trying to persuade another friend's parent to take her - instead of my DD...but as we lift share anyway we had already agreed to do it between us...so 'friend' got friendly with another girl and is getting a lift with their parent...and that girl's friend. They will be in rooms of 4 - my DD with 3 good friends (who will all lift share together) - so 'friend' will be in a room with the two other girls she lift shared with. They will have a spare space in their room - so are likely to get another girl in with them who is really unpleasant - a bully - none of the group will want to share with her.. in fact some members of the group have left because of her..
Now 'friend' is suddenly best friends with my DD again ...trying to persuade her to come into their room. Worse a few comments have been made that show 'friend' is putting down DD's good friends - even things like suggesting they shouldn't go to her birthday treat at the cinema - they would want to watch something rubbish ...etc etc etc...
I am maybe getting too carried away with this ...but DD is v. scatterbrained and was in trouble (with me) for losing cardigans, coats etc...she came home without her jumper - she said she must have left (with something else) just outside 'friend's house- I sent her straight back out to get it - 10 mins later, if that, it wasn't there and 'friend' hadn't seen it ... now DD has just lost another coat - and the first thing that went though my head was 'oh no' she was with 'friend' last time she saw it...
One day last week she came back with DD after school - normally she goes home at 5ish but was still here at 6pm...showing no signs of moving ..I asked when she had to be home and she said her parents had said 8pm. So I told her she couldn't stay that late (we had a lot of things to sort out for a party the next day) but could stay for dinner but would have to go home straight afterwards ...after dinner she went and sat on the sofa and despite a good few heavy hints didn't leave until 8pm....I felt like she deliberately pushing to see if I would be rude and tell her 'leave - NOW' ...
Please tell me I am being unreasonable and that I am reading too much into it and a 13 year can't be that .....devious?

[NandH]

she sounds awful, but I'm afraid YANBU!!

my youngest sister is 14, she has 2 'friends' like this! my dm eventually moved dsis to a better school...she now has lovely friends and is no longer bullied!

if you want this 'friend' gone by before 8 god dam tell her to leave! don't be pushed around by a CHILD!

[parachutesarefab]

You could try telling her - but she may well not want to hear it, and will decide you've got it in for 'friend'. She probably needs to work it out for herself. You're probably reading too much into some of it, but overall it doesn't sound great.

Activity weekend - speak to the adult in charge, ask if they can ensure the original room plans are stuck to. They may prefer to leave it to the girls, on the day, but no harm asking.

You should have put your foot down when 'friend' outstayed her welcome. Your house, you can tell her to leave. (Or at least get her to help with some unpleasant chores).

[CashmereHoodlum]

YANBU. Talk to your daughter and buy her a couple of books on the subject of friendship so that you can have a discussion prompted by the books.

[NayFindus]

Didn't want to read and run 83, I don't think URBU, but the friend is trouble. You say she is the youngest in a very ambitious family - do you think perhaps she gets the brunt of sibling rivalry at home, made to feel a loser against her siblings, and passes it on to your daughter? Did she do the entire course of piano lessons and would your daughter have really enjoyed them? ould she habe got bored of them anyway And can you go round her house and ask about the missing clothes, just very politely 'oh my daughter's lost her coat, has she left it here (doesn't matter if it's a bit untrue, as long as it's not an accusation)? Also, could you do it in front of friend and embarrass the hell out of her, and maybe casually say 'well I don't know how your dd gets away without doing her homework. Wouldn't she get in trouble?) She's only 13 but she sounds competitive but completely unaware how horrid she is. Let them know you're on to her.

I would talk to dd too as if you believe everything friend says and just chat it back to her, casually when you're making a cuppa or something and everything's relaxed, 'oh remember the piano lessons you passed up on? It's funny how dear friend got them isn't it?' and then leave it. If dd feels nagged or bossed about, she'll side with friend and you won't be able to get through to her.

Good luck :)

[greenfolder]

i have known children like that- dealing with one currently- i have 3 daughters.

you know those really awful people at work, who manipulate people and push boundaries- that will be this girl in 10 years.

as your dd is only 12, you need to set ground rules. i would have no hesitation in saying - sorry tonight is not convenient. my rules are clear on stuff like this- no ad-hoc arrangements. no last minute sleep overs, no last minute staying for tea. happily phone this girls mum and check- teenage girls lie continually about where they are etc. the minute you send the odd text or make the odd phone call to mum, your house and your dd will be less attractive to this girl.

make sure that room arrangements stay exactly as they are- do not worry about seeming to be the bossy/pushy parent. be strict with your dd about what you expect, but do not talk too negatively about the other girl. she is just at the age when she will realise that the other girl is not so cool or clever.

[HairyHandedTrucker]

She sounds like someone you dont need your dd round, but, does I think 'friend' is a nasty manipulative btch really an appropriate thing to say about a 13 year old?

[EldritchCleavage]

Well, my younger sister had a friend like this and my father banned her from the house. How we all breathed a sigh of relief (even my younger sister, if she was honest).

I agree with greenfolder, set the rules, stick to them. She's only a 13 year old, it is not unreasonable for you to be telling her what is going to happen rather than letting her dictate.

I wouldn't tell your DD she isn't a good friend so much as have a chat with DD about sticking up for herself and knowing her wants and interests are as valid as anyone else's.

[unlucky83]

I know I can't really tell DD exactly what I think - because it will probably backfire ...and have spoken to another parent (whose DD has also been a friend of this 'friend') and she feels sorry for the 'friend'...
I do think her family do influence her behaviour - she is competitive and her parents do have high expectations.
Things like the lift - I guess it really isn't fair on her ...her parents don't have a car and told her she couldn't go unless she sorted a lift out for herself ...me and another parent have often given her lifts to places and even taken her on days out - but the parents have never asked or even said thank you...
I think she still does the piano lessons - and not sure my daughter wouldn't have got bored but...that wasn't 'friend''s motivation.
Missing clothes is a tricky one...I don't think 'friend' has taken them -DD is scatterbrain...but I really wouldn't put it past her to hide stuff DD had left somewhere ...and in fact two of the coats DD has lost 'friend' had made comments about (knee length one - why do you need such a long coat? It looks silly - other one had a fluffy fleece lining - 'friend' told her it looked like a dressing gown) -so not sure DD didn't 'lose' them deliberately ...
DD should know better about the activity weekend ...a similar thing happened at primary school - where the most popular girl in the class became her best friend - having worked out that if they didn't get DD in their room they would have got some they really didn't want ...only to drop her as soon as the rooms were arranged. DD admitted that she would have had a better time in a room with her 'real' friends...and I have tried to drop hints about this....
DD has been told she has to phone before she brings someone home now ...especially because in theory she was grounded and I wasn't in and DP was too embarrassed to say no in front of 'friend'.
Hairy - sadly that is exactly what I now think of 'friend' ... she does seem older than her years and I haven't put everything here -long post anyway - but especially some things she has said about DD's good friends are really not very nice ...especially when I can see her motivation - but no I wouldn't say that to DD...
I do need to talk to her about making up her own mind though ...she is a strong character but does seem to be easily influenced...

[unlucky83]

I think she behaved the way she did when she wouldn't take the hint and go because she knows I have her sussed out...and I will be much firmer in future...
Also I am hoping when DD finds out that in fact 'Friend' isn't doing 1 science and 4 easy things the scales might drop from her eyes (maybe wishful thinking!)

[KurriKurri]

I think you need to stop worrying about the friend and concentrate on your DD. She needs to learn to stick up for herself and make her own choices. It is all very well saying that the friend influenced her to not take music lessons, or not take sciences or whatever, but your DD is 12, she needs to decide what she wants to do - you can't always blame other children if your DD makes bad choices, or doesn't tell you about things she should.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but we are being asked to judge a child you describe as a manipulative bitch. A lot of what you say about her is supposition and hearsay, and vague accusations based on no evidence (the lost jumper mystery - who the hell knows what happened, kids lose stuff all the time, maybe your DD is just careless and it's no one else's fault)

Regardkess of what this other girl is like, you will gain nothing by interfering, you have to trust your DD to work out her own friendships and make her own judgements, if this girl is a bad lot, your DD will work this out for herself - dare I say that maybe the reason your DD is over influenced by others is that she is not allowed to make her own decisions and learn from her own mistakes, you can't pick her friends for her, that is her choice.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

A trusting sweet nature is sometimes seen as a handy thing to kick. I do see where you are coming from. BUT when DD is 12 and wants to have friends and be in with a group, it's hard for Mum to influence who her friends are. You are using 'friend' now on MN to show you feel she is actually 2 faced but to your DD, this girl really is a friend! They've had this for 2 years now. It's DD, and this girl, and a few other peers, and the rest are their year and the whole school. A few little fish in a very big sea.

Don't lose focus, you need to focus on DD not getting trampled. The other girl at 13 is still young. They are all establishing themselves. Paradoxically she can by force of her personality shield DD from others who aren't 'good' either. She won't always necessarily be trying to trip DD up or outsmart her. If she's not actively bullying D or encouraging her to skip class or making her shoplift, off the top of my head, most of this is to do with DD standing up for herself. Some habits like being ditzy or careless are your DD's problem. As she matures, DD will see that this girl's version of friendship is pretty hollow and self-serving. Encourage her other friendships.

If your DD can weigh up two things and then applies a bit of thought to it, maybe she won't automatically assume she has to go with whatever the other girl suggests. Perhaps once subject choices affect the timetable DD will see more of those friends you call good. Hope she enjoys the activity weekend.

[Branleuse]

i think your daughter sounds like she's stuck between 2 very controlling overbearing people tbh

[HecateWhoopass]

I think you need to focus on giving your daughter the strength to be her own person and to not go along with what other people do. you can't change someone else's child but you can equip yours with the tools they need to ensure they can deal with such people. You need to teach your daughter the importance of knowing her own mind and the assertiveness skills she needs to not get railroaded.

This will serve her well in life. Not just with this girl, but with all the other people like her who will come in and out of her life!

[VenusRising]

I second the posters who say concentrate on getting your family relationship and communication issues sorted out pronto.

No amount of blame gaming is going to help your DD navigate her life.

[potatoprinter]

Rather than repeating what other posters have advised I will just add one thing. Is it possible to speak to the school about your worries and ask if they can separate this girl from your daughter and perhaps sit her with less manipulative people.

I think you also need to speak to the school with your daughter about her options and see realistically what the best choices are for her - not influenced by friend. Unless she finds school work very difficult I think double science at the very least would be advisable.

[VenusRising]

Try looking up this book.
This site is good for ideas smart girl.

[MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot]

It's tough. I think you are right on all counts though.

I wouldn't have listened to my Mum at that age (or now to be honest ) but what would have made me think twice was if I'd read something she'd written where it laid it all out in black and white.

Do you have a relative or friend you could write a letter to and accidentally leave it lying around without it seeming suspicious?

If you do, I'd whitter on about other things then say you are really worried that your DD is going to get hurt by one of her friends - then detail things like the piano lessons, sharing the room in primary, rearranging the car shares to suit her current friend, sharing the room now, the sciences, the missing 'not cool' clothes (hiding or dd losing on purpose) a lot of what you have written here but leave out the stuff about her over staying her welcome and being a little bitch. Try not to be too 'personal' and just factual. End it by saying that you love DD so much and hate to see her getting hurt and that you wish you could talk to your DD or that she would talk to you, but realise that it's hard to see your friends in a not so nice light and having your Mum say things about them is hard and it's difficult not to be defensive.

I'm sure others will disagree - I just know what would have made me 'think on' at that age

Good luck, whatever you decide to do, or not do.

[MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot]

Oh & of course, I agree with everyone saying that you should try to help your DD 'be her own person' and do what's right for her etc but I think you already do that. Sometimes no matter what you do, they are who they are... and you have to find other ways to help them.

[Oblomov]

My post was deleted by MN??????
I am BEYOND furious because i spent nearly 3/4 of an hour , in between cooking an eveing meal, try to help OP.
I am soooooo mad. I have contacted MN to question why. I wrote NOTHING wrong.
CARE to respond MN?

[Oblomov]

Who reported my 1st post?
MN only delete once it is bought to thier attention. So what on earth gave anyone to right to report my post, when I spent ages writing 6 paragraphs to help Op, is beyond my comprehension.

[CashmereHoodlum]

What happened?

[unlucky83]

Sorry Oblomov - I never saw your post ...but thanks for trying to help!
I have read everything - and I do agree I need to try and get DD to know her own mind...and toughen up a bit
I'm not trying to control her ...
We are in Scotland - and she is actually the youngest in her year - some children are more than a year older than her (Dec/Jan/Feb are encourage to defer a year - for instance there were children in the year below her who were a couple of months older than she was - I didn't really know how common it was) . And she did have a bit of a rough time at primary school. I was working full time, new to the area and she went to private Nursery until she started school - she didn't know any of the other children. It is a small community - the other children had been to the local toddlers group as babies, then playgroup, then school nursery -so it was hard for her. After a difficult first two years, she became best friends with another child who didn't really like my DD playing with other children (it was the only reason they used to fall out - used to worry me a bit)... then 2 or 3 years later that child moved school and DD had to start forming new friendships again ....
Also she isn't devious in her nature - what you see is what you get...she really doesn't understand people not being straight forward...eg She must have been about 7- 8 , just after her friend had left and some of the girls in her class asked her if she wanted to play with them...and then one after the other they said they needed the loo and disappeared...and didn't come back ..and she would wait for them ...eventually go to look for them and find them playing somewhere else. She would then ask them why they hadn't come back and they would laugh at her ...and she would get upset...This happened more than once...and no matter how much I tried to explain to her she should just say she didn't want to play and to play with someone else or even on her own...she kept letting them do it...she couldn't understand why they found it funny or why they would want to hurt her (someone else)....

[HecateWhoopass]

What did you say? Nothing stood out as deletable. Perhaps it was a mistake?

[JulieMumsnet]

@Oblomov

My post was deleted by MN??????
I am BEYOND furious because i spent nearly 3/4 of an hour , in between cooking an eveing meal, try to help OP.
I am soooooo mad. I have contacted MN to question why. I wrote NOTHING wrong.
CARE to respond MN?

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We removed your post as it contained a personal attack against the OP and her child.