AIBU to think this mother is horribly WRONG (hypocrite alert)

[proudnglad]

Ok so yesterday I called for a ban on gender threads. Now, this one is an extreme and unusual one so I think I am allowed a hypocritical U-turn.

A mother in Grazia today says she has not told anyone (except very close family) the sex of her toddler and doesn't intend to do so.

She wants 'it' to be gender neutral so that 'it' doesn't conform to stereotypes etc etc.

Where on earth is she going to send 'it' to school where 'it' won't get bullied or ridiculed or alienated?

The fact that I have to call a child 'it' is awful in itself.

Does anyone on here understand this or defend her decision? Show yourselves!

[TheGrumpalo]

OMG! No, you're not being unreasonable. Poor child Dread to think the problems it'll face.

[Goblinchild]

Interesting experiment, I assume that she's given the child a gender-neutral name?
She will either have to home educate or choose a school with unisex facilities for toileting and changing, and a culture of accepting and embracing difference.
Able to tolerate 'Are you a boy or a girl?'
'I'm Lee'
Given an appropriate and supportive environment, it would be very informative about the creation and sustainability of gender roles.

[Besom]

Apart from anything else, it seems a bit pointless. As soon as toddler is able he/she will surely be tellling other people "I'm a boy" or whatever. My 2 yr old dd is fond of saying "I'm a smaller girl" quite a lot to kids in the park.

[Goblinchild]

I suggest the use of 'they' will be common.
I can't imagine the problems they will face.
I wonder what the mother will do when the child resists and rebels?

[Besom]

Even if she didn't tell child, she wouldn't be able to control this information for very long I wouldn't have thought.

[Tee2072]

I used to know someone who did this, back when I was at university, so about 20 years ago.

The children where not perceived as gender neutral but as boys. They were all girls.

If you take a girl and give her short hair, dress her in trousers and t-shirts she does not look like no gender. She looks like a boy.

At least these girls did.

So instead of no gender stereotyping for her girls, they were stereotyped as boys.

[proudnglad]

The child is called Charlie so yes is gender neutral.

Wears neutral clothes obviously. She already has run ins with well-meaning strangers to come and say hi. When they ask if it's a boy or a girl she says 'I'd rather not say.

Tee - very interesting.

[proudnglad]

Goblin, but surely that's not realistic to answer 'I'm Charlie' to the question 'Are you a boy or a girl?'. It is transparently avoiding the question and that will be apparent to all very early on.

Look however pure her intentions, we live in the real world where people will think Charlie (and his mother) are 'weird'.

[FingonTheValiant]

I think there is a couple in Sweden doing the same thing. I wonder if she got the idea from them, they were in the press a little while ago.

Yes, here

Their child is two I think, and they are still managing. Not sure how long it'll work though.

Also, I agree somewhat with Tee, but I think the Swedes alternate between trousers and dresses to try to avoid that. And someone pointed out that very few people would bother going to those lengths for a boy, so these children are probably girls.

[TitsalinaBumSquash]

Doesn't Angalina Joile do this with her daughter Shiloh to a certain extent?

[SloanyPony]

Is it so bad and damaging to be a girl or a boy and be slightly stereotyped at times?

Is it really that damaging if someone gives you a rag doll instead of a fire truck?

I can't help thinking this child will go in the opposite direction. If "it" is a girl, they might try and go out their way to express this as soon as they can by embracing all things pink and polyester - if a boy, the boy equivalent!

When I was growing up, my mum favoured "unisex" clothing for me. Perfectly sensible in the baby and young toddler stages, particularly as I had an older brother and could have hand-me-downs, but by the time I was preschool age and school aged, I longed to wear a blouse and skirt, have something pink, etc. I used to adore my school uniform because it had a (pretty plain and sensible) tartan skirt. Even then she wouldn't buy the blouse option to go with it, I used to have the roll neck which I hated.

It had the opposite effect. (Not that she had an agenda to be fair - she wasn't trying to defeminise me, it was based on practicality and a bit of money saving). I became obsessed with makeup, to the extent that I was wearing practically a full face of makeup to school by aged 12 in an effort to feel girly and pretty (she didn't really allow that either - but I'd bring it to school and do it on the bus on the way, and I'd shoplift mascaras and everything ) and by the time I was old enough to buy my own clothes, they were excessively feminine. I was the only student at uni in frilly skirts etc (it was a hippy style of frilly skirt though in keeping with the student vibe!) and I have been through a pretty cringey pastel pink stage too in my early twentys which I am now over.

I just think if you are going to have a "girly girl" they will break forth regardless and if you are going to have a tomboy, the same - how many mothers do you see pleading with their tomboy girls to "just try it on, you might like it" about a new skirt or some such they've been given.

Same with boys...they will express that masculinity. Its often less focused on adornments with boys I've found, its more about the way they express themselves in play though a boy-ish boy would reject a slightly girly looking cardigan without a doubt if you were trying to dress gender neutral.

Nope, flame me, call me old fashioned, but I think she's barking up the wrong tree. As long as we are not trying to manipulate our children into ridiculous roles they dont need to be in, let it go I say. If they want a my-little-pony, just go with it. Unless you want them to spend their first pay cheque on one.

[Goblinchild]

'If you take a girl and give her short hair, dress her in trousers and t-shirts she does not look like no gender. She looks like a boy.'

That's exactly what gender stereotyping is. My daughter wore tracksuit type stuff with collar length hair as a toddler and up to being around 4, and few people assumed she was male. However this was almost 20 years ago, before the pink programme got going. The gender differences seem enforced much earlier by parents now, I cannot remember a single pink pushchair/combo around way back then. There were a lot of little girls wearing little girl clothes, but not as 'female' as now.
In a lot of ways, I feel we have gone backwards with these issues since the 80s and early 90s with children.

[sapphireblue]

I'm afraid my first thought on reading about this is that these people all have girls but wanted a boy.

To my mind there's no such thing as neutral dressing.......cut a child's hair short and dress it in trousers and everyone will assume it's a boy (I would anyway!).

[sapphireblue]

I should add that everyone thought I was a boy until I developed breasts.......my mum kept my curly hair cropped short and I didn't own a skirt or dress.

[SloanyPony]

Sapphire - did that have an effect on you?

Did you like it / hate it / not care?

What do you dress like now?

How long is your hair now?

Do you wear makeup? High heels?

How do you dress your children?

Sorry questions questions...

[cory]

While I dislike the intense gender stereotypes which are prevalent in the UK today, I always think if you want to rebel you should rebel in your own person, not use your children. Why doesn't she cut her own boobs off and wear gender neutral clothing and ask to be referred to as "it"? It's like parents insisting that their children share their religion, or their politics or whatever: it's denying them the right to be people of their own. How long before the toddler works out that "it" is not generally considered a pleasant and loving way of referring to a human being?

[TitsalinaBumSquash]

'.......cut a child's hair short and dress it in trousers and everyone will assume it's a boy.'

That is becuase we live in a society where Females can wear all types and styles of clothes and no one bats an eyelid but if a Male wears a Dress or Skirt and has long hair he will be seen as 'odd' or 'different.'

So sad really.

[Goblinchild]

[SloanyPony]

Needafootmassage - good point, but I find in my experience it seems to come out before they are even really watching much TV or being influenced by anything other than their parents.

In my close group of parent friends who were my NCT group, there are 4 girls in the group of 9. Most the mothers favoured the sort of neither gender neutral or excessively girly route - more Boden spots and brights than pink, and plenty of jeans, one buys boys shoes because there is more choice, toys were mainly gender neutral in the early days (and most of us favoured non-pink as most planned more than one child and knew it would be daft to have a sea of pink anyway) and only one of the 4 girls is excessively girly - but really, she is. She wears party dresses ALL THE TIME because her mother cannot coax her into anything more practical and she has chosen her battles. She bought more party dresses after the one she had was getting washed and worn daily.

I know there are exceptions but I think generally the really girly ones are born not made. Its only my experience or observation, if you take away all the media stuff and all the toys and ads, it may well be less pronounced...

[PfftTheMagicDragon]

Yes, goblin. SHe looks like a boy because social conditioning tells you that this is what boys look like.

I can see why she wants to do it tbh.

[SloanyPony]

I am sitting here in pastel pink PJ's.
My hair is long even though I'm pushing 35.
ITS ALL MY MOTHER'S FAULT