To want to tell people this?

[SecretNickname]

With regard to mothers who kill themselves and their children:

Depression is a vile, vile illness. Many, many people commit suicide when in the grip of it, when you are so low that all you can do is lie on the floor weeping and you can't ever see a time when you won't be doing that. I think it's such a tragedy that it makes people take their own lives, when careful support and counselling could help them learn to manage it...or it could not. Not everyone can learn to manage their depression, or even realise they have it. Some people have people around them who don't take it seriously as an illness and say things like 'look at your lovely children! You have nothing to be depressed about!' and 'pull yourself together'.

The only thing that has stopped me killing myself at times, when in the grip of a depresseive episode, has been the unbearable thought of leaving my children motherless and what that would do to them. I have been very aware on many an occasion that it is only one step to realising that if I can't continue in this life, and leaving my children motherless due to suicide would be highly likely to create a life for them full of depression and hideousness, then the most logical option would be to kill us all. I never, ever let myself get that far. Whenever I've felt suicidal, I've called the samaritans or my mum or a friend and sobbed and sobbed and talked and talked until the suicidal feelings have gone. And then I've talked and talked to people to try and continue getting better at managing it.

TBH, I think the method for this particular woman does suggest something more than desperate depression - you'd have to be pretty angry to stab your children, as well as just despairing. But I think it's all to easy to be vile to these mothers who may be doing the absolute best thing they can think of for their children at that time.

It is desperately tragic and sad that these women think that killing everyone would be the best option - better than killing herself and leaving her children dealing with the aftermath. I am lucky and grateful that I have the support and love to have never got to that point, and the intelligence and knowledge to know where to get emergency help when I've needed it. And the awareness to understand my illness and how to recognise when it is creating a situation that is out of my control and to know how to bring it back into my control.

[otchayaniye]

I'm sorry to hear that. I too have attempted suicide, before I was a mother, however.

But what about fathers who kill themselves? Mine did, but society views him as a man who killed himself (who may or may not have had a family) rather than a father who killed himself.

I don't know who you're referring to, I take it something in the news?

[PosieParker]

More men commit suicide than women. Whilst I accept that depression is horrific there really is no excuse for killing your children, it is your duty as a parent to get help.

[SecretNickname]

this story

I actually typed the post in response to the thread about it yesterday, but decided to be brave and put it where it might be more seen.

Preparing for a flaming though!

[SecretNickname]

Of course it's your duty to get help, but unless you've been in that desparing place, you can't understand how difficult it is to do that. Once you've passed through an episode, then it's easier, but when you're in it? It is so, so hard. Depression makes you self-destructive and making yourself do the thing that will make you better can feel impossible. Even knowing what that thing is, is hard.

And you hate yourself. You hate yourself so, so much for being so sad and angry, which makes you feel even worse. I bet, if that was the situation of this woman (and I am certain it is for most women who do this), that if she had managed to pull through the episode before she actually killed the children and herself, that she would have been so horrified at how low she got that she would have got help.

[PosieParker]

She could have called anyone to save her children. The terror she must have seen on their faces must have been dreadful.

[SecretNickname]

You're not listening to what I'm saying, Posie. A depressive crisis renders you incapable of seeing anything with any sense of perspective, you become self-destructive and it is so, so hard to find the capacity to 'call anyone'.

I even find it hard to remember how hard it feels to do the things that will help you, and I've been there! But I can remember, just about, and I can understand what that state does to me only after extensive counselling and reading and learning about my illness. Only when you truly understand it can you really manage to get a grip of it.

[ILovePlayingDarts]

Posie, I can understand what you're saying, but I have been with people in the grip of a crisis, and they are incapable of thinking straight, so these things do happen, and will continue to happen.

And on the other comment about fathers, I believe that men who kill their families and themselves are actually treating their family as a possession to do with as they will. I honestly believe that male suicide is a different synamic to female suicide.

And of course those fathers who kill the children and sometimes (but not always) themselves to get at their ex definitely treat the kids as their possession.

[ILovePlayingDarts]

"dynamic" not synamic!

[boiledegg1]

Sigh. Depression is an illness. In the vast majority of cases I would imagine that parents get help for their depression as the OP has done.

I hope that the case such as the one that hit the headlines recently is in the news because it is so (thankfully) rare.

[BonniePrinceBilly]

This thread will go the way of others. People who can't understand it will bang on about there not being any excuse ever to kill your children, as if that is what you're doing, making excuses. They don't understand, and they won't listen.

[Mollydoggerson]

If people exhibit signs of such serious and deep depression maybe they should be committed to ensure their safety and that of their children .

[SolidGoldBrass]

You're mostly right, OP - women who kill their children and themselves while suffering from severe depression (or acute psychosis) are simply not in their right minds.
WRT some people saying (on the other thread) that women who do this are treated more sympathetically than men, usually when a man kills his children and himself there has been a long history of abuse of the family by the man and his main motivation is to hurt the children's mother. While women can be abusive, of course, it's much rarer.

[BonniePrinceBilly]

Of course its wrong, that is hardly the issue is it? Its not like anyone is standing around saying oh well done you, goood play.

[PosieParker]

What is the point of this thread? We all know that depression can be the cause of horrific and incomprehensible actions and some of us will think that's enough and some of us will not. Do you want people to say poor woman? because I can't, I think I would be more forgiving if she were still alive but she's not around to accept forgiveness is she?

[BonniePrinceBilly]

You're proving my point entirely.

[cupcakesandbunting]

She must have been farked in the head. Obviously, there is no GOOD way of killing your children but stabbing them to death and in front of each other is probably indicative of her frame of mind at the time.

Still find it difficult to have any sympathy for her though.

[Marjee]

Op . Women who do this are not evil, they are seriouly ill! This story actually made me cry. That poor woman will have to live with what she did for the rest of her life

[violethill]

I also don't understand the point of this thread tbh.

I think most of us understand that severe depression can trigger incomprehensible actions.

I also agree that the dynamic of male suicide seems to be different to that of female suicide. Where I feel uneasy is where people then make a value judgement about that fact. Surely if the physiological aspects of being a male make you more likely to behave in certain ways, then it's no better and no worse that the physiological aspects of being a female. Ultimately we cannot dictate the gender we are born with.

I also feel very uneasy about these threads that link to specific news events, because the reality is we just DON'T KNOW. The woman in this case may have been clinically depressed. She may, or may not, have tried to seek professional help. She may, or may not, have contributed to any mental illness through drug/alcohol use. She may be totally of sound mind, but was worried she would lost custody of her children to their father and would rather kill them than let that happen. We don't know. So it's pointless to conjecture.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Agree, violethill. I only ever feel sympathy for the children, regardless of which parent has commited murder.

[cupcakesandbunting]

Also, just a thought but...

Some of the posters in this thread are upset at other posters failing to show any empathy with women who kill their children as a result of mental illness but the thing is this; as mothers, killing your child should be the least natural thing in the world and we as humans tend to revile what we percieve as unnatural. If you have experience in the issues surrounding mental health, then of course you will find it easier to empathise in cases like this, but for those of us who don't, it seems more black and white. To a lesser extent, my husband found it very hard when I suffered with relatively mild depression. He couldn't understand why I wouldn't just pull myself together and get out of bed. It's easier to understand when you've suffered yourself.