Legal process

[Drypancake]

Hi - I am looking for some insight into the tail end court process and key documents. Our adoption (ie final) court hearing is on 23 June. The adoption is not contested.

Wondering if anyone knows the answers to any the following

1. how long between the adoption order and the pronouncement hearing?
   
2. is the pronouncement hearing optional (ie purely celebratory and at the request of the adopters) or mandatory. Do you receive any documents at that hearing?
   
3. what is the difference between the adoption certificate and the amended birth certificate? Who issues these? What is the use of either of these?
   
4. how long did it take for either the adoption certificate or the amended birth certificate to be issued?
   
   Thank you so much.

[Jennifersrabbit]

Hi

I think the first hearing is where the legal adoption order is made. The celebration hearing is usually a few weeks later. I don't think it is obligatory for you to go although most people like to. The rationale for splitting it is that birth parents have the opportunity to attend the first hearing and it's often not desirable for birth parents and adopters to meet in the courtroom.

If you have particular reasons for not wanting to attend a celebration hearing I don't think this would be essential. Talk to the court clerk or your SW maybe? Are you worried it wouldn't be best for your child? It can be super low key - the actual hearing is less than five minutes. Might be easier to just go than to convince people you don't want to

If I remember correctly you get the adoption order in the post fairly soon after the hearing, and then about six weeks after that you get a couple of 'short form' adoption certificates. These are like a short form birth certificate but have 'adoption certificate' on the front. Just have DCs adopted name and place of birth.

You can then pay to get long form adoption certificates which have DCs adopted name, your names and occupations as adoptive parents, and place of birth. Takes about 6 weeks for those. You do need them for formal purposes.

The birth certificate doesn't get amended as such, but the adopted person uses the adoption certificate for all purposes for which a birth cert is required. I think at Somerset House they mark the birth register as 'child adopted' and then there is a confidential register of adoption certificates. But don't quote me on that one.

Hope that helps.

[Lilka]

1. Varies, but last time I did it, it was 5 weeks
   
   
2. I have no idea if the celebration hearing is optional, but you don't have to request it, it'll be automatically booked in for you. I didn't recieve any documents
   
   
3. The general register office issues all certificates, and when your adoption is finalised, the court will send this information to them. They will issue the new certificates and void the old ones.
   
   Your child currently has 2 birth certificates - a short one and a long one (the long BC has birth parent details on, but the short one does not and just has the childs details). When your adoption is finalised, these 2 will be legally voided, and two new certificates will be issued, an amended short BC and an adoption certificate
   
   The amended short BC will look just like any other short BC - it will have your childs new legal name etc, but no parent details.
   
   The adoption certificate replaces the long form BC. It will have your details on it as parent/s etc. An adoption certificate does not look the same as a birth certificate and makes it very clear that you adopted your child. Nevertheless, many adopters and SW's refer to the adoption certificate as a new birth certificate (I tend not to, partly because I've seen it confuse adopters who were then surprised and a bit upset when they realised they don't actually get a new long BC with their details on)
   
   These new certificates replace the old birth certificates (which no longer have legal value) and do the same things as any other birth certificates. To be honest I've never needed my kids short BC's for anything that I can remember, just their adoption certificates - for things like getting passports, banks, etc
   
   
4. After the adoption is finalised (not the pronouncment hearing, but the first one, legal finalisation), everything will be sent to the register office automatically, and you don't need to do anything. You will be sent the new short BC in the post. With it, there should be a form for you to fill in and send off with a cheque to order the adoption certificate (however many copies you want, and any additional SBC's if you want more than one copy), but you can order docs online as well
   
   Took about 6 weeks each time for my lot for the new SBC's, but again it varies. It depends on how quick the court are to send the docs off!
   
   Hope that helps

[odyssey2001]

1. Depends on the courts but maybe four weeks?
   
2. It is optional but it was really good to meet the judge. Why wouldn't you want to attend? You receive a certificate that has no legal relevance. It is is purely ceremonial.
   
3. I'm not sure what an amended birth certificate is. I don't believe they exist. There are two adoption certificates and both replace the birth certificate. A short one which just includes your child's name, DOB etc and the full one which includes your name(s) as parents. The GRO will send you a short certificate for free 6 weeks after the paperwork is issued, which can be a few weeks after the order hearing, so two months after the hearing. To get the full one, you have to order it from the GRO for about £9, which will take a week. The short one is a bit pointless before the age of 18. You will always need the full one for passport, etc i.e. anything that requires you to price you're connection to your child and vise versa.
   
4. answered above
   
   This is how I understand things. We are waiting for the short one to be issued at the moment and this is what we are expecting / have experienced so far.

[Lilka]

I really should look at my kids short BC's and see whether they do look the same as birth kids short BC's - I thought they looked identical but I genuinely can't remember any more, I haven't look at them in so long, just the adoption certs!

[Jennifersrabbit]

Sorry same problem here. As I was sitting next to the filing cabinet I had a look at ours ...

Short form does in fact say 'certificate of birth' and has adopted child's name, date and place of birth.

Long form says 'copy of an entry in the register' but is very clearly an adoption cert as it has 'date the adoption was effected'.

Shows how much I look at official documents

[fasparent]

Have too send forms too Southport too get Official Birth Certificates with new names etc. Southport is the centre for Adopted Children's birth Certificates.

[fasparent]

Sorry you can do it over the telephone, did it with ours.

[LastingLight]

Interesting. In South Africa a new birth certificate is issued with the child's name and the adoptive parents' names. There is no indication that the child was adopted.

[Lilka]

Also, if you don't get sent the amended short BC in the post in a reasonable period of time, do enquire about it (you get this one automatically, you only need to order the adoption cert. I got a discount with the form that came with the short BC IIRC)

I know of an adoptive parent who only realised several years into the adoption, that the court had never sent the adoption order to the RO, who hadn't issued any new certificates, hence official docs still showed the birth parents as legal parents.

(which is just ridiculous, I mean how hard can it be to do this one thing, court? How hard can it be?)

[fasparent]

Lastlight it is only a certificate of adoption, which is sent too Adoption registry in Southport who will send an official Birth Certificate with new parents and child's name with no inference too Adoption recorded on certificate.

[bberry]

Great post, v useful!

[Drypancake]

Thanks everybody, that was exactly the information I was looking for. I was wondering if there would be time to get a passport and take our DS to see my parents in France in the summer. Alas, it doesn't look like it.

I tried to get this info from our SW, council's legal department, my own solicitor. No-one has a flipping clue. You guys rock!

We do want the pronouncement hearing, I was just wondering if having it extends the amount of time it takes for the adoption certificate to be issued.

[Hels20]

After the adoption order, there will then be a period of 2 or : weeks for a right of appeal...only after that will you get to the celebratory hearing.

We are in the same boat - adoption order hearing coming up...a free overseas holiday (for various reasons) but I think we are looking at about 4 or 5 months from adoption order until we get passport in our hands... And you can't fast track LO's passport...so you will have to wait 3 or 4 weeks...

[Lilka]

fasparent adopted children in the UK don't have birth certificates with their adoptive parents names on. The court sends the adoption order details to the Register Office, and they create the adoption certificate which acts as a birth certificate. But the certificate absolutely is an adoption certificate, not a birth certificate. It says on the top something like 'certified copy of an entry in the adopted children's register' and contains some adoption details on it. You can't mistake it for a birth certificate

It's interesting what different countries do though. America also reissue amended long birth certificates. Personally I don't think I'd want something implying I'd given birth to my children (and there are American adult adoptees who are vocal about not wanting amended birth certificates) but on the other hand they do offer privacy about adoption and there's of adults who prefer the privacy it offers and don't really care about it implying that their adoptive mum is their birth mum. Interesting

[Lilka]

drypan having the pronouncement hearing won't delay getting the new certs, they don't wait till that hearing to send the docs off as far as I know - they can't have waited with mine, the sbc arrived too soon after the celebration hearing - literally couple of days for DS - for that to be the case

[Drypancake]

Hels20 - thank you. 2 questions:

1. Are you certain there is an appeal right after the "final" hearing. We've been told there is an appeal right now, ie prior to that hearing. I wasn't aware there will be another one later.
   
2. Why can you not fast track LO's passport?

[Hels20]

1. there is always a right of appeal for decisions made
   by any court (apart from ECHR). In this instance it should be a formality - but if eg the birth parents had never been sent the paperwork, or the papers had been sent to the wrong family, then theoretically, birth parents could appeal. I read a case not so long ago on FamilyLawWeek which talks about the extremely rare circumstances an adoption order could be revoked - always when due process failed and wasn't followed. But so unlikely. Courts are so careful (the judge
   In the case I read said he could only think of one example where due process had not been followed and so the AO was quashed).
   
   But you get PR on adoption order day.
   
   
2. not sure why - but I was looking this up for our DS and you can't use the 48 hour process offered by Victoria or the 7 day fast track. I think it is only for renewals. I even phoned up the passport office and they confirmed my understanding.

[Jennifersrabbit]

What a shame - sounds like v bad timing.

Have you double checked that LO has never been abroad on holiday with foster carers for example? And therefore doesn't have a passport in their birth name which they could travel on?

Also could you potentially apply in birth name now, with SS agreement?

Just thoughts.

Re appeal rights, I am pretty sure that birth parents have a formal right to ask for leave to appeal against the order being made before the first hearing. I havent understood there to be any further right to appeal after the adoption order is made - I think in law it is final and absolute which is in part why there is the last chance of appeal beforehand.

I'd always understood the split hearing to be simply because birth parents are informed of date and time of hearing, and have a right to attend, so obviously having one hearing for both final decision and 'celebration' would be difficult all round.

[fasparent]

Agree with you Lilka ALL children Adopted or Otherwise have a Certificate of Entry Also can obtain a Certificate of Birth short form which one can ask for or is issued with just child's name on it. Would need entry certificate for passport records checks etc. Short Birth Certificate is child friendly no mention of adoption on it what so ever. useful if child needs too use Birth Certificate or produce one , without personal disclosures

[Hels20]

Jennifer I think that the LA will keep hold of the passport. I am almost certain that it would be fraud to travel on such a passport (I speak as a lawyer...) even if the Adoptive Parents did have it because such a person has technically ceased to exit...

As for appeal - as I said above, technically, if there has been a manifest failure to follow due process and it would have made a difference (or e.g. the judge was completely paralytic when he heard the case) then an adoption order could be set aside. But this is so unlikely. Even though technically, the adoption order in Re W (A Child) 2010 could have been set aside because the mother was never served with the papers, the adoption order stood because it wouldn't have changed the course of events - would have merely delayed.

Drypancake - I feel for you. We are in the same situation and it is very frustrating.

[Hels20]

PS Drypancake - not trying to set hares running re: adoption order and its finality. As I said, I read recently that judges could only think of one instance where an adoption order had been set aside - this is different to where parents are given leave to appeal (where there are a few more examples).

[Jennifersrabbit]

Hels - here too

I was trying to reassure as well! I think it's the difference isn't it between a process where the right of appeal is written into the legislation, as it is pre adoption order, and the fact that if a process is completely mishandled (ie drunk judge scenario) you could challenge that. But I think you'd have to bring judicial review?

As you say I can't see it happening.

I hadn't thought about the complexity of travelling as a legally non existent person! Was thinking that legally you can go under whatever name you fancy, but I can see having been legally non-existed may be a step beyond.

Pancakes, could the grandparents come to you perhaps?

[Lilka]

An adoption order can be appealed and overturned but only in 2 circumstances - the correct legal process wasn't followed, or, in the case of a relinquished baby, if the mother can show she was forced to 'relinquish' because of coercion/blackmail etc and thus there was never really consent to adoption in the first place. Correct legal process includes things like serving papers to the right people, and ensuring that birth parents have their time to appeal etc, before the adoption order is made.

Without meaning to worry anyone, just thought Hels you might be interested to know of another adoption order revoked just this week. Failure in process, they didn't give the birth mum 21 days to appeal something before finalising the adoption, so now over a month down the line, oh no, adoption revoked. Mother wrote a blog about post about it here - 2outofthree.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/adoption-order-set-aside/

Just awful for the family, and it should never ever have happened But at least it's only a technicality really and a new adoption will be finalised soon

But yes, nearly all legal orders can be appealed, within a set time period (you go out of that time period and don't appeal within it, you generally can't appeal later, that was a key issue in the Webster case for instance)

[gymmommy]

A bit off topic but just to warn everyone currently with applications in, we had a final hearing date through but it turned out not to be the final hearing. We thought a court letter with final hearing surely must mean final. SW dumbfounded. Just taking each court date as a step closer to the adoption now and trying not to stress too much and just enjoy lo.

[fasparent]

Know of one sibling in group where legal forgot process in mix up for one
child, intention of adoption has too be registered too LA three month's prior too process, child was not registered was picked up too late, child was an adult by this time, omission could not be revoked .