Joanna Lumley says don't go out and get drunk...

(199 Posts)
JustAHolyFool Thu 24-Jan-13 23:47:48

...to avoid being raped.

Daily Mail link, but it's all over twitter too.

link

Don't read the comments unless you fancy some RAAAAAGE.

pinkyredrose Fri 25-Jan-13 00:34:58

There's some very worrying comments. I can't believe so many people agree with her.

Sadly I've had the misfortune to meet people like that who believe that a woman doesn't 'get raped' but that she 'gets herself raped'.

Very disturbing article.

bemybebe Fri 25-Jan-13 00:44:54

Well, she clearly communicates views that some do not agree with but calling her a rape apologist (as some did on twitter and in the dm comments) is rich. As I understand Rape Crisis says "Rapists choose women based on their vulnerability not their physical appearance". A drunk person is a vulnerable person, wouldn;t you agree?

That said, the problem is that most people are exclusively focused on "rape in the dark alley" type scenario, a lot less are on the fact that rapists are usually known to the woman.

80sMum Fri 25-Jan-13 01:04:52

But I think she talks a lot of sense!

"I promise you it is better to look after yourself properly, which means behave properly, be polite, be on time, dress properly - I don't mean dully - but don't be sick in the gutter at midnight in a silly dress with no money to get a taxi home, because somebody will take advantage of you, either they'll rape you, or they'll knock you on the head or they'll rob you."

Good advice, surely? I think she mentions potential rape and robbery to illustrate how vulnerable women can be to attacks when they're not in full control of their faculties.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 25-Jan-13 01:09:43

Rape is one of the times when I wish people said "what about the Menz" more, as in what about the men who are doing all the actual raping, let's focus on them for once.

PrincessFiorimonde Fri 25-Jan-13 01:36:17

I saw the quotation from Joanna Lumley. I think she is wrong.

Whatever a woman wears, or whatever she has had to drink, it is not an invitation to rape.

courgetteDOTcom Fri 25-Jan-13 02:03:52

Some men might look for that but a. that's not a woman's fault and b. to say dressing/ acting like that will make a man who's not on the prowl rape is rather insulting to men.

A man who is going to rape is going to rape, if he didn't choose that woman, he'd have chosen the next.

MidnightMasquerader Fri 25-Jan-13 02:52:59

80sMum - why is she talking to women at all? and telling them to modify their behaviour?

Why isn't she telling men to 'behave', to not get raucous drunk, and to basically just NOT RAPE people...??! Why isn't the focus on them?

Sorry, I'm not mad at you, it's just that this sort of shite is so, so, frustrating...

Charlizee Fri 25-Jan-13 03:13:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CaoNiMa Fri 25-Jan-13 03:55:00

Charlizee, are you comparing being robbed of 300 pounds to being sexually violated?

FastidiaBlueberry Fri 25-Jan-13 09:18:21

Oh nice, because a woman is just another object like a car. hmm

I look forward to the day when concerned slebs start telling men to stop going out on male-bonding sexist drinking sessions with their mates, getting blind drunk, jockeying for place in the pack to prove they're the best male, telling rape jokes to each other and objectifying the women they see around them, because they might end up raping a woman on their way home.

Wishfulmakeupping Fri 25-Jan-13 09:34:56

Total victim blaming- what about the actions of men?! Give in- the comments supporting the article are just as worrying.
This is 2013 right?! Ffs

I can sort of see what she means, in that if you are drunk and incapable of standing you are vulnerable to any kind of attack.

However as a rape survivor I feel that what gets a woman raped is encountering a rapist. Not what she is wearing or where she is.

I also find the suggestion that women wearing revealing clothing are making themselves more vulnerable to rape highly offensive. The vast majority of men are perfectly able to control themselves regardless of what a woman wears - they are not animals.

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 09:41:45

I'm a feminist but I think it's sensible advice.

It's the advice I would give my daughters, it's about being streetwise. Yes rape is the fault of men, not the victim, but Joanna's advice is sensible - I work for the emergency services and frankly I don't think drinking til you cannot look after yourself is putting yourself at risk. There are bad people out there who will take advantage.

Lumley, who also believes women should stop going out in "practically nothing", said she does not condone raucous behaviour in young boys either, but that girls are more vulnerable and had to be aware of “predators” on the streets.

“Girls used not to get legless and now they do, and so I think that’s a trend which we should pull back from.”

Lumley, who describes herself as a "lioness" looking after younger lion cubs, says it's her duty to say something about how the young ones behave.

From the original interview: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9822160/Joanna-Lumley-on-how-to-live-your-life-and-make-it-glorious-darling.html

ubik Fri 25-Jan-13 09:47:44

Sorry is putting yourself at risk

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 09:54:44

There is a huge difference between advising people not to behave in a manner that is hugely damaging to them (not just because of the risk of becoming a victim of crime but also because of the health costs of the binge drinking culture) and blaming them and not men for rape.

This seems like yet another example of people seizing on others' words to demonstrate their own right-thinking on an issue, and deliberately putting an absurd and unintended slant on those words in order to create a canvas for a statement of their superior politics.

I'm getting really depressed about this horrible, conversation-stopping performance of sanctimony all over the internet. It makes it harder and harder to really talk about important things.

But she is a rape apologist.

What 'rape apologist' means is someone who seeks to explain away why rape happens. That is what she is doing.

There's a message I've seen recently, which points out (truthfully) that if you think the most important thing to do about rape is to dress differently or stay sober, what you are effectively hoping is not that rapists stop raping (though you surely do hope that) - you're hoping they rape some other woman.

Because rapists don't decide 'ok, I won't rape anyone now', they'll go and rape someone else. This is why women who live on the streets have extremely high risk of being raped.

I know this sounds horrible and I can totally understand why people do things like being scared of walking home alone at night. I'm scared. But spreading this message that other women are responsible is indefensible.

Wishfulmakeupping Fri 25-Jan-13 09:55:17

Agree it's sensible advice that I'm sure all of us would advocate however mentioning it alongside the term 'rape' is damaging as it is again is protraying it as the woman's fault. We need to remember that a woman can be vulnerable for many reasons it's up to men to know what is right and wrong.

Greythorne Fri 25-Jan-13 09:57:37

I think they are some really blindingly obvious and foolproof ways to prevent rape. And it's a shame slebs like Lumley don't talk about them more. Here we are, tips, tricks and guidelines to minimize rape:

tumblinfeminist.tumblr.com/post/5532695085/fool-proof-sexual-assault-prevention-tips

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 09:58:12

So is it never ok to advise women not to go out and get completely drunk, with no money to get home, at risk of violence and robbery? Can we only tell our sons that and not our daughters?

I like those, grey.

floaty - of course it's ok to advise that. Why wouldn't it be?

Although I think you might not choose to tell your daughter she looks 'laddish' and like 'trash'?

FloatyBeatie Fri 25-Jan-13 10:32:01

"Why wouldn't it be?" -- well, according to several on this thread it makes you a rape apologist.

I wonder if it is an age thing? I can remember when late nights in cty centres weren't like this, because I am old. I have teenage sons and I would be absolutely furious with them if they behaved in the way that Lumley is advising against (it goes without saying that I would be very much more furious with them if the assaulted a girl/woman under any circumstances whatsoever).

This business of hideous drunkenness in the streets late at night is immeasurably worse than it used to be a few decades ago and the reason is the deregulation of alcohol sales and entertainment venues -- once again consumerist capitalism is the cause of a problem, but criticism of businesses is sidelined by an emphasis on the alleged empowement involved in a purchasing lifestyle that damages individuals while lining business pockets.

Women are being sold a heavy-drinking lifestyle in the name of their freedom. Just like they are sold a whole load of other disempowering crap and told that the purchase of it is liberation. I don't understand feminists who baulk at criticising binge drinking, any more than I understand other apologists for damaging retail trends.

I can remember when late nights in cty centres weren't like this And yet women were still being raped.

It is perfectly fine to criticise binge-drinking. It is perfectly fine to criticise people who drink so much they are incapable of looking after themselves.

It is not ok to imply that if a woman gets raped while drunk it is her own fault. It isn't, it is the rapist's fault.

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